I thought Steem blockchain represented freedom and anarchy? I guess I was wrong.

in #ungrip3 years ago

I got mugged yesterday and while it only cost me .001STU, it raises the issue of flagging violence once again. Yes, my views are not shared by many, but I'm going to keep sharing what I see as this is a moral and ethical issue that needs to be addressed. If we don't end the violence, it will destroy this blockchain as people continue the exodus for numerous reasons!

Public Domain

The creators of the blockchain, many witnesses and other users view flagging as a way to balance the blockchain. I've often heard them speak of game theory as the model used to implement the idea and they justify using flags as a result. However, I don't suspect that game theory accounted for rouge, violent, abusive people with overwhelming power tromping on thousands of little guys. As a result, many people have been drummed out of the blockchain through force, fear, intimidation, violence and bullying. While I acknowledge that spam has been reduced as a result, I must ask the question: at what cost was that established?

What value to we place on the emotional and mental health of our fellow brothers and sisters? How much do we value relationships here on this blockchain? What steps did people take to teach, guide, inform or even reconcile relationships before they turned to violent means? How many people resort to violence right away out of vengeance, righteousness or judgement?

Flags are violent and I've written posts in the past explaining my position. The governance model used by the flagging system is flawed. Flags are punitive, meaning that they are intended to inflict punishment for breaching community or individual standards. This violent approach then is exacerbated by the fact that individuals who received flags don't have any recourse. They are guilty as charged, which is a shameful approach to fostering healthy relationships within the blockchain and would also violate most legal principles if brought to court, with the exception of dictatorships, fascist or authoritarian regimes. This is not what this blockchain represents. It represents freedom, anarchy, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, etc. There is a values conflict on this blockchain.

What we choose best reflect the values we want expressed here!

What are the standards and who determines what those standards are? Typical governance models in the world would determine the standards and find people innocent until proven guilty. They have access to a court to have the case heard and adjudicated. They separate the three branches of government so that no one individual or branch has all the power (administrative, executive, judicial).

That does not happen here. This is the wild west all over again. Except there is no honour here as people hide behind computer screens. During the wild west days there was a code of conduct that people used if they were to have a shoot out in the street. I've witnessed ugly, violent and horribly abusive behaviours from people on both sides of the conflicts on this blockchain. It is war. That war will continue with the flagging changes in HF21. Why? Because the character of man has not changed. You cannot legislate or create technology to make people behave properly. The more you try, the more complex the laws, coding, etc become.

Those that supposedly exemplify the moral and ethical standards of the blockchain as they are self appointed guardians, also engage in the most abhorrent, abusive, violent behaviour here. With the HF21 implementing changes in how flagging works, I see this getting worse, not better. This will drive users away from the platform in droves and I urge caution to all the witnesses driving these changes.

Five months ago I wrote a post asking for the capacity to be able to block people who engage in violence. Steempeak has some of that capability, but this needs to be a blockchain feature as there are ways around specific applications due to the open nature of the blockchain and the multiple tools at our disposal. I doubt very much that will happen.

However, establishing tribes and kicking people out who violate the community standards of that tribe is not violence. It is a peaceful way of establishing healthy boundaries. Each and every single individual on this blockchain has the right to set healthy boundaries and if people violate those boundaries, we have the right to say "no" and end the relationship. There is no effective way of ending relationships on this blockchain yet. Facebook has that capacity, but Steem blockchain does not. If there is one change I want to see, this is it!

Until that happens, what can any of us do about this?

We must first acknowledge that there are people out there who pretend to act in the best interests of the blockchain but still engage in violence. I include people who work for the Steemit corporation, witnesses and many other self appointed authorities on the blockchain. If we refuse to acknowledge that flagging is violent, then any hope for a solution is mute and void. We might as well admit that the blockchain is only for greed. Most people refuse to see the violence. Acknowledging flagging as violent would require them to look in the mirror and admit to their own violent behaviour.

The probability of people changing their violent behaviour is low at this point.

Flagging is meant to punish, is a violent means of sensorship and none of us has the right to pass judgement over on others. Nobody has that right!!! I left Facebook to get away fro censorship. Big brother is here too if we are not careful!

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. - Matthew 7:1-5

So I refuse to pass judgement over the individual who flagged me yesterday. What should I do instead? I looked within myself first and I responded to him/her. I will give @zorg67 some crypto from the post as the user seems to value that more than relationships, friendship or even open communication & dialogue. If I don't hear from the user in the next few days, I will mute the account and continue my work. I forgive the individual and pray for his / her own healing. I pray for the healing of all those who flag on this platform. I put down tobacco and burn a smudge in the spirit of peace and healing for all of us and all our relationships.

Here is what I told @zorg67 last night. I pray I get a response.

Good evening @zorg67. I am a reasonable man and having a meaningful and respectful conversation about tags would be far more honourable and dignified than starting a relationship with violence. I assume you are referring to the technology tag that I put on my post. May I point out that the word technology means:

    the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes

The term science means:

    the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

While many would assume that technology only applies to machines, computers, etc, it also applies to the knowledge we need so that we can interact with the natural world in a healthy way. This post explains practical activities that can help us all navigate through the physical and natural world. So please explain to me how your violent flag is justified and how you claim that my use of the word 'technology' does not apply?

The burden of proof is on you @zorg67 as you are the one making the claim that I cannot use the tag as intended. I conditionally accept your claim on the condition that you prove that the definitions I used are not valid or are incorrect and upon proof that my post fails to provide people with the tools or knowledge to help people navigate through the physical world. I also ask for proof that you can lash out in violence against me without my consent and prove to me that you can define words to fit your argument without consideration to others who are using those words. I would also like to see proof that you have the authority to sensor me and that I granted that authority to you.

My whole blog is about peace, freedom and prosperity for all. You blatantly defy that peace with your violent behaviour. I ask that you govern yourself accordingly in your response to me. Let it also be known that I forgive you and I pray for your own healing. May Creator bless you with peace, freedom, prosperity, joy and love.

I AM that I AM
my spirit name is White Walking Feather
my vessels name is rob and it was born in the page family

My master is Creator and nobody else.

Flagging this post. This wasn't violence, theft or censorship - but a fundamental mechanism of the blockchain that everyone should be using, far more often. Re-read your own post, but swap the words downvote and flagging for upvote and you'll see how ridiculous this whole thing is. You seem to be misunderstanding how this system works, and are spreading this misunderstanding like a virus. Pray less, think more.


Downvotes are our only protection against abuse. check out whaleshares to see what happens when you remove them.

You are spreading FUD, and obviously do not understand the structure of the reward pool.

Flagging a post is not violence by any stretch of imagination, and you have a really interesting imagination. This idea that words, and flagging and other things that are by no means actual violence, those who keep saying it is are just people who have issues with other challenging their views or flagging a post they feel is inappropriate, which is their right to do, as it is your right to follow beta mentalities. Cheers.

 3 years ago (edited)

Flags are not violence, and you seriously made a post crying about a 1/10th cent flag saying you were mugged?

While I agree there are a lot of malicious flags (I get nearly 100 of them on some days, almost always more than 20-30 from spammers I flag) without flags and the threats of flags, the price of Steem would be hitting $0.00 nearly overnight. Large stakeholders will make 10 posts with just a single character using all their voting power as most likely the large majority of the userbase.

I can see your posts get more support than 99% of the users here, and you are complaining about losing 1/10th of a cent that wasn't even in your wallet. Not to mention you made $6 complaining about a 1/10th of a cent flag.

Maybe they are technically not violence, they are often perceived as violence. Do the benefits really outweigh the negative impact?

It is exactly because of this over drama they are perceived this way.

He is perpetuating a bad and OLDSTEEM
way of thinking and it's lame and short sighted

Well we certainly can use a paradigm shift

 3 years ago (edited)Reveal Comment
 3 years ago Reveal Comment

marky mark beanie jerkoff sanders are the ones flagging everyone and then complain and tell people the opposite of what is fact
you would think your watching mainstream news listening to these clowns
keep informing people of these problems sir and hopefully the majority here will wake up
i personally flag nobody since i believe everyone has a right to their opinion even if i hate some of them and nobody should be flagged for voicing their beliefs
cheers and good comment and completely true

 3 years ago 


Point to one flag flown on my content that was beneficial. One of the hundreds.

Bernie is perhaps the most prolific flagger on the platform. I don't see any benefit to anyone - any person - from any flag he's flown.

I've seen you fly a lot of flags for no good reason as well. You seem to be very willing to simply censor people because you don't like them, and you certainly like extracting your outsize share of rewards after they've been flagged back to the pool.

Pot calling kettles black. Makes me ashamed of your avatar.

 3 years ago 

I don't see any benefit to anyone - any person - from any flag he's flown.


He's so cracked that most of his flags are bs now.

But, you seem to have missed out on the times when he was the only whale that gave a fuck about bullshit or plagiarism on trending.

Ever considered how much money he threw away by flagging? Nope. Imagine he went full Haejin. He would have made more. Mined stake or not.

"...you seem to have missed out on the times when he was the only whale that gave a fuck about bullshit or plagiarism on trending."

I've only been here a couple years. I may have missed that because it happened before I got here, or because I simply ignore trending.

Thanks for the info though.

 3 years ago 

Point is, he did lots of good, but the him right now is not that good.

I appear to be ignorant of the former, and can but agree with the latter.

 3 years ago 

I never flagged you.

All my flags have a good reason, I don't because I disagree with someone or I don't like them.

I didn't say you had flagged me. @stembot has flown a lot of flags, and I've seen flags you've flown on this account for what seems to be mere personal reasons. Certainly it is true I have no idea of what's in your head, but appearances can be revealing.

 3 years ago 

appearances can be revealing.

Apparently not. Did you actually check out what was flagged?

For the most part, no. But I have been present and witnessed flags flown for what I recall being mere personal antipathy. I didn't keep a ledger and don't care enough to sift through the thousands of flags to post a list. It's my recollection of my impression at the time based on my personal presence on posts where I witnessed the event.

 3 years ago 

Stembot was being decommissioned and I used a lot of voting power to flag before removing the delegation. All the flags were for spam and abuse. Not a single one was because I didn't like someone or I was having a hissy fit.

I have been a witness to flags you've claimed to have flown for reasons you stated were based on dislike for a person or their opinion, few I specifically recall other than noting it happened. Perhaps @drugwars might jog your memory.

Not that I actually care a great deal, and I don't keep a ledger FFS. My actual issue with your impact on Steem is that you run a bidbot, and the reason it matters to me is because is devalues humanity, equating humanity to mere devices. No matter how that is done, for what reasons it is done, that fundamental degradation cannot be mitigated, and going forward I believe that degradation will prove, if it has not already, to be of existential import.

It's easy to point and laugh at that philosophical line in the sand, and say 'it's just about some money', but the fact is that technology advances, and machines have already been granted citizenship. Slopes are slippery, and that's a fact.

Society is people, and applying rights to machines or devices is a step onto that slope.

Please stop.

While I completely agree with your comment here, and disagree with almost all the claims made by the OP, I do agree that being flagged for one's opinion is harmful to this platform. Note that I am not a fan of your business model on Steem, and have no fear of flags from you or anyone, yet have never flagged you.

I find your abiity to reason all too apparent, and simply await your recognition that bidbots, even those carefully purged of shitposters as is yours, are destructive of society employed as curators and equal to human persons on social media.

I suspect you allow your profits to blind you to your societal malignance. Like a reformed smoker, I await your evolution from a malign influence to a zealot intent on countering it. After Steem collapses as a result of HF21 and you realize the destructive influence of stake weighting and automated social influence on social discourse, let me know. I'd probably welcome your social effect once you are disabused of your focus on profit, and become devoted to people.

 3 years ago (edited)

He was not flagged because of opinion and I don't agree with flagging for opinion either. I wasn't even the one who flagged him.

Bid bots are here, they are not going anywhere and I'm one of the select few that care about preventing them being used for garbage and do more than any other to enforce that. If I stopped running a bid bot, the situation would be worse than it is now that SP would be handed to another bid bot owner who doesn't give a shit.

Kinder, gentler votebots is not a solution to bots voting. For a metaphor that really sinks this idea home, have a read at 'The Seventh Rapist', regarding prison rape. Kinder, gentler rapists aren't the solution to the problem of prison rape either.

I didn't flag OP either. I have to say I find your statement that you don't agree with opinion flagging disingenuous, as I have seen what I was certain were opinion flags you've flown on multiple occasions. I'll also note certain of your associations strongly indicate support for opinion flagging. I do concede you've not flagged me for it, despite motivation.

 3 years ago (edited)

I didn't flag OP either. I have to say I find your statement that you don't agree with opinion flagging disingenuous, as I have seen what I was certain were opinion flags you've flown on multiple occasions.

Proof or bullshit.

I'll also note certain of your associations strongly indicate support for opinion flagging.

Why because I did a curation project with him? Bullshit as well.

"Proof or bullshit."

I reckon you are better able to dig through steemd than I. Perhaps you have strange ideas about what is spam, and have convinced yourself that you were countering spam. Even if I spent time looking back, in such case all I'd do is waste both our time.

If you're not going to opinion flag from here on out, good. I wish you'd address how bots voting degrades humanity, and being less rapine about it isn't solving the problem.

 3 years ago (edited)

I never opinion flag, it's not something I'm starting from here on out. Seems very odd you accuse me of it yet have no proof or too lazy to come up with some "example" of it.

Nothing I can do about bot voting, linear rewards opened that door and I don't see it stopping when 90% of the bot owners are AFK.

Either you aren't being honest about your motivations for flying the flags you've flown, or have mentally blocked them out, or have convinced yourself you flew them for other reasons. Handing you a list of flags won't prove anything, and all I can base my opinion on is what I can see. I can't see what's in your head. I can't prove your motivation no matter how hard I try. I've said I was convinced you flew flags for what appeared to me to be personal dislike or disagreement on opinion, and I can't prove to you what was in my head either. Speaking of appearances...

"Nothing I can do about bot voting..."

Says the bidbot owner. Do you even grasp the vapidity of that claim?

 3 years ago Reveal Comment

This has nothing to do with STEM, removing rewards.

I'm still on the fence about this issue but you always make a lot of good points.

Why are you still on the fence about this issue? Look within your heart my dear friend. Your mind has done lots of analysis to break down the issue, but allow your heart to make the decision. Where do you stand my friend? As you sit on the fence, your silence sides with the oppressor and violent offenders. That makes you complicit and an accessory. I pray you find peace and choose freedom, anarchy and healthy relationships instead. Your influence on this blockchain is greater than you think. Your voice does matter and people need to hear from you!

sorry man but im on wwf side on this one
everyone should be able to voice their opinions without fear of being flagged even if we dont like their opinions
hope alls well man im gone for the weekend and have a good one yourself

The famed #Ungrip series. 😃
Lots of lessons here. I hope more people read it.
Thank you.

I did not realize my ungrip tag was 'famed'. lol Thank you for the support. I hope more people read it too! Thank you!!!!

You've got DRAMA. You are going to be a Whale!

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

Sorry I don't get your point. Steem has a voting mechanism to reward content. Upvotes add to the pending payout and downvotes remove from the pending payout. At the end of the seven days we get paid whatever payout the post has minus curation and beneficiaries. If the payout of the post is negative you receive zero payout not the negative payout. Therefore theft through downvotes is not possible. Nothing has been taken from you. I hope that clears things up.

You do not own any rewards until they hit your wallet, it's as simple as that. That's how the technology works if you don't like it leave because it will not change.

You are trivializing the actual violence victims of muggings suffer. I'm not saying you should have been flagged. I'm saying being flagged is nothing compared to being stabbed, shot, or beaten and your actual personal possessions taken by the perp.

Flagging is wrong. Mugging is wrong. Both have economic impact. That does not make them the same thing, since mugging can injure your person, and does many, but flagging only makes you feel bad.

Get real. Wanna see if I have any reason to claim direct personal knowledge on this matter? Have a look at my wallet.

Start an SMT where only upvotes exist. No downvotes. In your community the rule will be: don't like the content? Ignore it or engage in meaningful conversation to learn from each other differences.

No downvotes, no violence.

Well, there has always been a sense of greed on this blockchain. The way the reward mechanics are set up breeds that unfortunately.

But you said it yourself, this blockchain should represent:
" It represents freedom, anarchy, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, etc"

And so then, people should have the freedom to flag what they want.

Oh, he got mugged alright! wow!

Lol, you wrote this cuz one flag?

I get on everything I post 2 automated flags + bernies gang flagwalls all my posts, that are upvoted, to zero.


i get flagged almost a 100 times some days for beanies bots when he does not like my comments and i deal with it and expect to be in the negative for a long time and dont really give a shit
i met a lot of good people and medicated marky and jerkoff beanie are not worth to respond too or waste your time or resources on clowns such as these
have a great evening bud

Resteemed in full support of what you have said man.

The author behind @kawaiicrush spends every waking moment of his pathetic life thinking about @berniesanders. He claims @berniesanders has made over 11 million dollars in Steem and is INSANELY jealous he could never live such an amazing life. He's SO fucking pathetic he will make multiple posts and comments with ABSURD claims just to get the attention of his 8 pathetic followers who also have nothing better to do with their time than dream about @berniesanders and the life they will never live. How fucking pathetic can someone be, @kawaiicrush?

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