Psychology Addict # 58 | Punishment – An Overview Through the Lens of Psychology.
Behaviour is the manner with which individuals act or conduct themselves, particularly in relation to others and the environment they are part of. Not all kinds of behaviour can be attributed to learning. For, psychological studies have shown that as well as through learning, behaviour can also arise, be sustained or modified by means of the consequences that follow it Ref.
According to the Skinnerian approach this is something that can take place either through reinforcers or punishment. While the former refers to consequences that strengthen behaviour; for example, a form of reward that leads an individual to repeat a given action. The latter concerns an event or response that lowers or eliminate a particular type of behaviour, typically an undesirable one Ref.. Just like when a parent tells their teenager they have to wash the dishes for the entire week because s/he broke the household rules (e.g. misused the credit card).
You might have noticed that the Skinnerian use of the term punishment is rather similar to its popular, common use, as in to punish a wrongdoer. There is, however, a crucial difference between the two. The lay use of it, more often than not, relates to something that only supposes to reduce unwanted behaviour, without an actual measurement of it. Also, punishment in Skinnerian terms is not so much about how aversive the event or response itself is; but instead, it is about the lowering or (ideally) eliminating effect it has on the unwanted action. The teenager’s mum and dad, for example, might as well end up sending him/her to clean the toilets of their local bus terminal, but if s/he still keeps on overspending … well, that is not really punishment.
Is Punishment Needed?
Offender: a person who breaks the rules, or causes problems.
I am yet to come across a household, community or society with no offenders. Take my neighbourhood, for instance. My husband and I live in a lovely, green vicinity 1-hour from the capital city. Around here there is an area where just green/garden waste should be deposited. But some neighbours decided that there is where they want to dispose empty bottles as well as bits & bobs like single, broken flip-flops.
Do these individuals violate the local rules because the rules are not clear enough? Or, because there’s no consequence to their offense?
Historical events demonstrate that the possibility of being punished does keep people in check ref.. For example, during the second world war the Nazis carried out an experiment in Denmark which entailed deporting the entire Danish police force. Their aim was to test whether people would still conform to the formal rules. Offenses increased considerably ref.. This chain of events consequently led sociologist J. Toby to conclude that the prospect of being punished does keep people abiding by the rulesref...
Socialization is the process of internalizing the norms and ideas of society.
I follow the notion which proposes that it’s the process of socialization rather than punishment itself that prevents offenses from taking place. For example, the individuals who have absorbed the moral norms of their communities will be unlikely to offend because it would go against their self-concept (personal beliefs and ideas about one’s own self). Modern sociologists agree, for instance, that it is socialization which mostly brings law and order about, not the police force ref.. I am with them.
The moral norms of an environment at war are non-existent. Hence, there is no foundation upon which a self-concept can be constructed. This is not to say, however, that all that people need to cooperate with the system is a set of established rules. For, there will always be those who behave selfishly, and refuse to adopt the local rules. Situational factors/temptations, and confidence that they can escape punishment are just a couple of numerous reasons for this. See, for example, how looting broke out in Chile after a devastating earthquake struck the country Ref..
For The Sake of Those Who Abide by The Rules.
Durkheim thought that unpunished offense demoralised those who follow the norms and abide by the rules Ref... He based his argument on psychoanalytic thinking and pondered about the need those who resist the temptation to do what is prohibited by the group have to obtain validation towards their self-control. Ref..This line of thought then posits that the social purpose of punishing rule-breakers is to demonstrate to those who cooperate with the system that their inhibition and repression of their own deviant inclinations is worthy. Some sort of reassurance. But, it appears that there is a little bit more to punishment that that.
A research paper published in the Journal of Theoretical Biology discusses that humans have an inherent predisposition to punish non-cooperators. Something which is done even in cases when punishment comes at a cost to the punisher. For example, giving up money so as to ensure someone who behaved selfishly will be penalized Ref. Fehr and Gachter has termed this process altruistic punishment, and explained that this is a mechanism which maintains and fosters group interest and collaboration Ref.. An explanation that has been supported by the findings of several laboratory studies Ref...
Nonetheless, in the same way punishment is guided by altruistic principles it is also driven by vengeance Ref.. These guided actions are even mediated by different brain regions, as neurobiological models of punishment have revealed Ref.. PET scans have shown that while the former kind is associated with activity in the dorsal striatum, with activation increasing alongside the severity of the punishment inflicted. Reflecting, therefore, a greater sense of personal loss, but also a goal-oriented actionRef.. Vengeful punishment has been seen to link with the activation of amygdala-centred pathways, which ignites a rather impulsive route to punishment that is partly mediated by aggression, by retaliationRef.. What is more, this amygdala-dependent pathway plays an important part in the avoidance of future interaction with the target, or in ostracising it altogether Ref..
In this way rather than interpreting unpunished offenses as a means of demoralising individuals who embrace the community norms, it would be appropriate to view it as a threat to the stability of social cooperation. As a way of allowing cheaters to obtain gains at the expense of those who play fairly.
To Punish or Not To Punish? That Is The Question.
Still, at the same time research shows that punishment increases in-group cooperation, none of it found that it elicits cooperation from the part of the offender Ref.. This is something widely known among Skinnerians too. B.F Skinner himself stated that “a person who has been punished will not be less inclined to behave in a given way, at best he learns to avoid punishment” Ref.. And that is in part due to the fact that punishment mostly informs individuals about what not to do, and often fails to guide offenders towards the behaviour that is desired by the community or society. Reinforcement (rewards) is what indicates the direction that ought to be taken.
However, if punishment needs to be implemented in order to preserve social cooperation and the morale of those who play by the rules it mustn’t be the kind that allows vengeance and intimidation to occur. It should instead be the kind that reasonably and transparently displays the offenses that have been committed. This is something that in turn enhances socialization (and consequently the self-concept of members). For it clearly lays out the type of skills and conduct that are required and valued within the group. After all successful societies have arisen because cooperation have championed selfishness. And that is because humans have an extraordinary capacity to work together in large numbers for the improvement and betterment of the greater good. In this manner, if action needs to be taken to punish those who pose a threat to the system. Greater efforts then become required to reinforce the behaviour of those who conform with the norms.
A promising formulae to start anew.
Reference List:
Altruistic punishment in humans
Chile earthquake: Troops sent in to deter looting and violence.
Punishment and cooperation in nature.
Strong reciprocity and human society
The neurobiology of punishment
Thank you my dear reader,
For once again taking the time to read my writings. You make my journey on this platform purposeful & meaningful. I wish you a day filled with productivity and peace of mind 😊
Abigail.
One would of course prefer a society where punishment is not needed at all but sometimes people just don't follow the rules because they are aware that they won't experience any consequences. It's a sad fact of life. But having said that. Charity as well as good manners begins at home. If we taught our children and if our parents have taught us and so forth we shouldn't have had a problem to start off with. Good article. Thought provoking
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Hello @dkkarolien :)
Like you, I also think it's sad that some people (not the majority) only conform to society's norms because of the possibility of being punished. The point you made about the values that are nurtured at home is a truly valid one. The foundations of socialization and morality are indeed laid by the examples set by caregivers.
I am very glad you like this post.
thank you for taking the time to read and provide such wonderful feedback.
Have a great day !
I am a kindergartenteacher and a grandmother. Living with children I always tried to avoid punishment. The reaction from parents or others has to be in relation to the "wrong" behavior like a consequence of it. Punishing is most of the time to reduce loved things (freedom, money, internet...) that has nothing to do with consequences... thanks for your thoughts and infos! Greetings from Germany Kadna
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Hello Kadna :) It's nice to see you here. Good opportunity to thank you for your support (including re-esteeming my last post)!
The consequence meaning either reinforcement or punishment. It has been largely demonstrated that this sort of consequence does either give rise to, maintain or alter behaviour :D. With punishment being, in Skinnerian terms, an event that follows an action that leads to the decreased frequency of it.
I do agree that when it comes to children a more productive way to inform them about rules and norms is through reinforcement. Because, as observed in the article, punishment is limited in the way that only tells them what not to do, and often fails to guide them towards the desired conduct. Children more than any one are the ones who need information and guidance. Through kindness and compassion that is :)
The little ones who are under your care are indeed privileged ones!
Greeting from Portugal,
Best,
Abigail.
Thank you for your support too 😉 maybe you know @agmore?
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@agmoore lives in my heart Kadna :) So, yep. I do know her!
I like her very much. She reads my Posts by heart.
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Wish you could see my face...such a smile. So happy you and @abigail-dantes have made a connection. Perfect :))
Yes, life is perfect ;-)
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And you live in mine, my dear Abigail. Thank you so much!
B.F. Sinners work was interesting. He basically laid a foundation for understanding human behavior along with Pavlov and a few others. What you said about socialization and the individual adopting the norms of society into their self concept was very interesting. I don't know if I've ever heard that before but it makes a lot of sense to me. I also liked the part about punishments being a signal to people who abide by the rules. I found that part really interesting as well.
I have read a few studies on people punishing others at a cost to themselves. One study demonstrated that participants often turn down an opportunity for a monetary reward in order to stop a fellow participant, who acted unfairly, from receiving their own monetary reward. What was interesting about that study was that individuals who scored higher on the psychopathy scale often accepted the rewards regardless of how the other participant acted. They didnt seem to care that the other participant acted unfairly as long as they themselves got a reward. It was an interesting study.
Nice conclusion to your article. Reinforcing good behavior is far more important then punishing bad behavior as it provides a lot more information to the individual in terms of morals, ethics, societal norms...etc. Nice work as usual!
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Hello @leaky20 😊
It is always wonderful to hear that somehow my writings have provided you with some new info and delivered an interesting read to you :) To this day the works of Skinner (in particular) and other early behaviorists still fascinate me.
Oh! What a most incredible find about individuals presenting higher scores on the psychopathy scales! Incredible, what it says about their judgement of fairness and cooperation, or really, what it says about their concern toward the group as a whole. Amazing! Thank you for sharing this info here with me :) I am writing it down to look into it whenever I have a free minute.
You guys have a great afternoon ahead!
I wish you two all the best always ...
:)
I just realized that I did a really poor job explaining he study I'm talking about. Lol. I was referring to the study known as the "ultimatum game." In it, two people have to split a sum of money and one participant makes an offer how the money will be split. If the second participant accepts the offer both recieve the amount of money provided by the original offer. If the offer is rejected then neither participant receives anything. Both participants are aware of the terms before the offer is made. In most cases participants behave fairly making offers at 40-50% split and generally, offers below 30% are rejected. Despite the fact that rejecting the offer is actually an irrational behavior, participants generally will take the punishment of receiving nothing in order to punish the other person for being unfair. In the case of psychopaths, they often accept unfair distributions, even very unfair ones. These participants generally saw any offer as a win for them - "money in their pocket."
Moral of the story: It's more rational to take the money regardless of the fairness of the offer but it's not socially cooperative, so the average person will typically reject an unfair distribution.
The study reminded me of your article because of the social cooperation aspect of it and the accepting punishment in order to punish others aspect.
Enjoy the rest of your day as well :)
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Oh, I see ... Thank you for taking the time to explain things further @leaky20 :)
When I saw this post, I remembered a humorous statement I once made; "in a typical African home, you can be punished for an assumed offence".
Actually, where I grew up, people see "punishment" differently. There are many reasons you may be punished like:
When I talk about punishment, I'm not referring to this kind of punishment quoted below
Even without punishment, you'd still need to wash the dishes as part of your normal duties.. I'm talking about receiving strokes of cane, beating with slippers, etc.
This has made some kids to live in fear of being punished and they tend not to relate freely with their parents. Some of them are even scared of revealing some secrets to them for the fear of being punished.
In my opinion, I think people (parents also) should focus more on reinforcements, rather than punishment. If a child knows that he will be appreciated for behaving well, he'll try his best to do that.
Nice piece again Abbey. Much love from Nigeria
Sammii!!
I am not quite sure if this is appropriate but your comment actually made giggle!
Well, this part:
Can you believe that? That is punishment for the sake of punishing. How confusing that might be for a child! My 9 year-old nephew often gets punished. I strongly disagree with it. But, hey, I am not his mum and dad. Last Christmas his punishment was not getting a gift, because he disrespected his grandmother (he shouted at her). Like you observed here I think this sort of approach just alienates the child, and I think it caused them to lose trust in their parents. I believe there are other ways of teaching a child that there are consequences to wrongdoing.
Punishing by means of physical aggression. NO, just simply no! This has a huge potential to kick start a very negative pattern or misbehaviour. It is very sad that people nowadays still resort to this mode of discipline. Those parents need to be better informed! To shape their children's behaviour through reinforcement, if anything. Just like you observed.
Thank you my dear Sammi, for your invaluable, constant support! You rock :*
Lots of love from hot Portugal! <3
In my opinion, all violence, whether it be by word, switch, fines or downvotes, is to be avoided. There is always a loving way to effect desirable social behavior, conforming or not.
You seem to be saying that sometimes violence has a positive effect in that it increases conformity, but that rewarding conforming behavior is just as important. Am I reading your post right?
Hello dear @owasco :)
Please let me first tell you how much respect I have for people who stop to consider the possibility that they might not be getting something entirely right! :) Thank you for asking this question (it says a lot about a person):
There are indeed many studies that have repeatedly demonstrated that punishment (the punishment in these studies all have to do with financial penalties) does increase cooperation among group members (If you have time, you can follow the reference links I provided throughout the article to check this further :)). They show that when there is a possibility to be punished people act in less individualistic manner.
My personal opinion, nevertheless, is that punishment on its own doesn't do the trick. Instead, the process by which individuals identify with and absorb their local community's rules and norms does. This is what I say:
I also state the following. Agreeing with sociologists that propose that the police force is not what prevents hell from breaking loose.
Further, I also highlight the fact that despite studies having shown that in-group cooperation increases with the possibility of being punished. Punishment in itself is flawed. Because it doesn't really guide the target towards the right direction. It only; well .. punishes it :/
So, this lives social environments in a bit of a pickle! But only because they don't properly and thoroughly socialite their members. This is a process that can take place in a household, in a neighborhood and even here on Steemit. For example, you mentioned downvotes in your comment.
I read on a previous post of yours, titled Value:
Of course it's not right! But, the way I see it is that the whole downvote exists in this platform because Steemit is not yet an environment sophisticated enough to provide a foundation on which all its members can build self-concept, an identity. That is why there is so much abuse going on (plagiarism, bidbot abuse and so forth). Unfortunately punishing people is the way that whoever makes the decisions found to try to rebuilt cooperation and prevent people from taking advantage of the system.
This decision is a flawed one because now, people can just go on downvoting others willy-nilly. There is no cost to themselves. This allows vengeance and intimidation to take place in this platform. Of course this is not right. Just as you said.
Am I saying that the possibility of being punished (punishment in Skinnerian terms) is effective in enhancing cooperation. Yes. There is plenty evidence out there to support my claim. Nevertheless, not the kind of punishment that brings oppression and uncertainty about. It needs to be altruistic punishment. That which also comes at a cost to the doer.
(Although you have used the word punishment interchangeably with violence, I am talking about punishment in Skinnerian terms. As I explained at the beginning of the article.)
This is what I say.
Finally, do I think punishment is just as important as reinforcement?
Absolutely not. First because it doesn't really guide people towards what to do, as stated before. And secondly because it is through rewards that a society gets to move forward. Through opportunities and recognition. But, if punishment is all the decision makers can come up with to suppress cheating from overtaking the environment. Than, efforts need to be improved and/or put in place to reward those who conform. Greater efforts. As I said and concluded the text. In the hope that it would elicit the importance that reinforcements have over punishment :)
So then, the society, the household, the community .... doesn't become a system that is mostly about punishing wrongdoers. Punishment is an ugly word, I know. That's why I began this post clarifying that rather than using it in the sense that the general public uses, I am using it as a psychological term that describe one way of shaping behaviour :)
Thank you once again for your question @owasco. I know this is too long a reply. But, my intention is to be understood by you.
Have a great day :)
Thank you for that considered response! I am wondering if there is any correlation between the end stages of a political/social entity and the level of "punishment" its citizens tolerate. Seems to me I spend large parts of my days avoiding fines, whether it be parking, filing returns, or getting my kids vaccinated as mandated. And it's all getting worse, sucking up more and more of my days.
To have run into it on steem is steaming me. @quillfire wrote yesterday about a plan for "punishment" on steem, which sounds like a regulatory quagmire to me. Get rid of the downvotes, that's my stance and I am sticking to it.
But back to your piece. Seems to me it could be used as an argument in favor of fewer laws and more love.
This is an interesting reflection @owasco. I think one of the reasons that drive individuals to rise and challenge their political system is when their society becomes pervaded by punishment (lack of opportunities, debt, insecurity).
😆 this made me giggle!
Thank you for pointing me to @quillfire's post. It's very well written. I don't think his plan is feasible though.
As of late, every single post of mine is downvoted. The resulting financial loss is minimal and sometimes is non-existent. But I still hate them :D Still, I think they are the most practical tool to prevent abuse on the platform. HOWEVER, the way it's being done at the moment is a mess!! It can't continue like this. Downvotes must have a cost to the person who downvotes. It must! Just my humble opinion :)
All right!
Bye bye for now @owasco.
All the best to you!
My dear Abigail,
What a topic to take on. This even tops near death experience, I think, for the potential to provoke discussion, even controversy.
I live in a country where mass incarceration is a fact. The notion of rehabilitation has been abandoned (behavior modification). It's all about vengeance. A consequence: large segments of the population are ostracized ("amygdala-dependent pathway plays an important part in the avoidance of future interaction with the target, or in ostracising it altogether"). The ostracism is reinforced by laws that prevent felons from fully reintegrating into society. This is not only devastating to individuals and communities, but undermines the cohesion of the nation as a whole.
However, we, in my country, cannot have a rational, science-based discussion about punishment (incarceration and its consequences) because the issue of retribution comes to the fore. The efficacy of 'punishment' is irrelevant to many people. The indifference to efficacy is most glaringly evident when the issue of the death penalty is raised. An overwhelming number of legitimate studies indicate that the death penalty does not deter crime. And yet, a large percentage (a growing percentage!) of people in my country support it.
As for punishment within the family...I look back on my own parenting and realize that when I thought punishment was necessary, it was often because I was at a loss for how to effectively manage the children without it. Punishment is a default mode. It's quick, easy, and everybody says it's good. But I agree with you. The best way would be to have the children internalize values so they carry these with them wherever they go, for the rest of their lives.
Would I do it better, if I had another chance? I think so. Maybe not perfect, but better.
This post is so rich. All of yours are, but wow. Such an important topic.
Thanks, Abigail. I will of course resteem and tweet this out. I'm going to tweet it out every day for a week :)
With even more regard (is that possible?), affection and respect,
Your New York friend, from punishment-ridden USA
AG
I am deeply puzzled by this @agmoore2. What kind of bias underlies this sort of thinking? Punishment is a very complex topic. I understand humans have an urge to punish, something which may have stemmed from the very grounds that laid the foundations for our moral values. With fairness/unfairness being one of them. We just simply do not tolerate what is deemed unfair, unjust. It's deeply ingrained in us (please, my dear do watch this video. It's 3 minutes long.)
But then, as a species, we learnt behaviors that prevent selfishness from undermining cooperation - altruistic punishment. Except that we did not leave the old habits behind: punishment as an act of vengeance, of aggression, of ostracism (pretty much like it is done in non-human animals societies). Maybe because the socialization process has stagnated in our modern world. But, how can people build a sense of self-concept in a society where rewards (opportunities, recognition) are limited, and punishment (fines, prison, debt) is aplenty? Where there is little to sacrifice, or lose for the greater good of the group? If one has nothing to lose ... well ... a vicious cycle begins :/
As for children, punishment should come as a means to inform them about how the world works. Punishment is an ugly word, I know. But here we are using it in Skinnerian terms. As a tool to diminish or eliminate undesirable behaviour. Children will inevitably act in ways that are not desirable, because they're constantly exploring (this is very good!). But, in my opinion, it is not fair, mainly on the child, to just reward their desired behaviour and leave the undesirable ones undealt with because of fear of punishment. They need to know there are consequences to not conforming, to going against the rules.
There is nothing wrong with sitting a small child on the sofa; let's say after he kicked another kid, and calmly tell him: "now, I need to tell you that there are other ways of dealing with your frustrations .... and so on and on ... I will leave you here for 5 minutes so you can reflect on what you did". If this sort of event reduces the child impulsive reactions; well, not only is that punishment, but also responsible caring. Because it prepares that child to be function in society :) but alas! Parents are understandably so very drained, and tired and impatient that they often end up resorting to the quick methods!
Weeeeeeeee !!! THANK YOU my dear. Your support is invaluable to me. Your encouraging, motivating feedback, your re-esteems, your sharing my work with the world out there ... oh, words can not thank you enough, or express the extent of my gratitude <3
You do live in my heart :*
I am afraid you are too clever for me. I tried to avoid this in my comment because it is controversial. Many, many of the original settlers who came to the United States (then the New World) were motivated by religion. They were dissenters, most of them adhering to a strict fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity (you referred to the Salem Witch Trials in one of your previous blogs). It would be hard to overestimate the influence of these religious origins on the development of US culture, and law. I think the inclination to impose a strict moral code, a kind of righteousness (an eye for an eye), influences our penal system. It is impervious to science and reasonable argument.
The influence of fundamentalist religion hangs over this country in other ways--for example, sex education. I love that my country was settled by freedom seekers. I love that this nation was founded by people who had courage and passion enough to come to a raw place and fight for principle (and survival). Some of these settlers were my direct ancestors. However, the legacy of fundamentalist religion is now a kind of yolk that limits the freedom of others.
You see why I avoided this 800 pound gorilla in the room:))
And speaking of gorillas (or simians, anyway)--I loved the video. I had actually seen that before but needed a refresher. The rage, the indignation, of the slighted monkey. Just wonderful.
Of course I share your blogs. It's a public service. I think you should schedule a TED talk. 😇
I don't know how you get these gems out so quickly. I just plod along slowly.
Have a wonderful weekend, dear friend.
Affectionately,
AG
Thank you for the history lesson my dear. Thank you so much <3
You too have a wonderful weekend!
Much, much love ❤️☀️🍁
Dear Abigail,
❕
I'm sorry if this came off as a history lesson. You are fully aware of history, I know. I was just trying to address your reference to 'bias'--In God We Trust is actually the official motto of the US. Right up there with the eagle
I so much enjoy our dialogues on this, and other subjects. I've learned a great deal.
Have the most wonderful, peaceful weekend.
Love and respect, ❤
AG
Also, I forgot to thank you for those links you shared here. For the next few months I am going to take some lessons on the latest in forensic psychology (one never stops), and I have already seen that I will have to conduct research on offenders rights, rehabilitations in prison and so forth... every bit of material is valuable!
All right! Make sure you take that apology back sooner than later 😘
Much love from a warm Evening in Portugal!
Movie time over here 😊
🌟
Thank you, friend. Removed
🌟
I really appreciate this blog (and all the postings from you I've dealt with so far) you've brought to the community over the years. Or into the "system", as I like to say preferably and often:) You equip the general knowledge with psychological findings and historical events and information.
To use the means of exaggeration, I would say that I have dedicated my second half of life to the subject of non-punishment.
I see it that those who break the rules do so because they have discovered a bug in the system and subsequently test how far they can go to bend the rules or disobey them altogether. Also, the follow role models they have observed. For me the rule breakers are a very strong expression, which gives a clear signal to the system participants: "Something is very wrong!" A disturbance. Did you ever read my blog in this? I have forgotten.
Punishment is a learned habit, a very powerful ideology that we believe in, not only appropriated during our lifetime, but also in its historical context.
The rule breaker is created by the system - the framework conditions - and the system participants. From what I understand about humans: Pathological rule-breakers will have learned in their early childhood that only in this way could they resist the authorities in order to escape the sense of loss of identity, because their caregivers probably only responded to such strong signals of disregard for rules and much less to cooperative signals. Furthermore, the rule operators themselves often enough broke their own rules and over time became untrustworthy.
In a system where this is immanent, those who adhere to the rules but focus on the rule breakers feed the abuser with indignation, negative attention and judgment.
To the extent that rule followers and rule breakers both believe in the rule of punishment, what happens here on Steemit, happens. One wants to correct the behavior and see the rulebreaker humbly. The rulebreaker basically uses his familiar pattern and feels confirmed in his actions, because there are always people who respond to his provocation.
My own attitude to this is that when I perceive such excitement peaks in a system, then I ask myself:
"What service does the rule-breaker do for me?"
(sidenote: Angry at someone who dumps trash reminds me of having done the same, therefor I feel disease and discomfort but want to put it onto someone else to avoid guilt).
If he were not practising such a visible abuse as his obvious abuse, I might not even notice that I am participating in a system that by its very nature promotes abuse.
As long as a critical majority in a system actually believes in punishment as the means of choice, the perpetrator will believe in it, too. His repentance, in so far as it is placed and condemned, rests on the avoidance of further punishment, since there always comes a time when he becomes tired of fighting. Insight is not necessarily that. I see that you too view the greater potential in cooperation.
The rule-breaker must recognize that the others are trustworthy and give preference to their cooperative potentials. An actor whose excited efforts to abuse a system will sooner or later fail to recognize that he does not want to forego attention. One could say: Until then he has damaged valuable resources and the common good, but any system that behaves "self-confidently" and has trust in its abilities can carry these rule breaks. In the permanent refusal to emotionally track down the offender, to find him and to want to punish him, the person simply loses the interest to continue to hold on to this identity. Here at Steemit, the participants are afraid that the reward pool will be empty at some point and therefore they want to teach the attackers and abusers behaviour.
Nevertheless, I would like to say that the many small and inconspicuous offences in which system participants behave exactly as the loudest abuser screams into the world, prove him right.
For as long as the strongest rule-breaker even suspects or believes to discover such a thing, nothing will stop him from sticking to his conviction that all others are just cowards, who do the same but claim otherwise. Because, after all, when he is abusive, he acts out to punish others, doesn't he? The punisher always believes in punishment. In this sense, he is an extremely valuable member of society, just as everyone else is. The concept of punishment is one that employs many people and will probably continue to do so.
To keep a clear conscience and not to present one's own offenses as "insignificant" because there is no real power behind them is an error of all of us. Because it is.
I am finally here! :D
I read this comment a couples of times before today and now I read it once again! It is like a play in a play, I mean an essay in an essay :) But, I am going to highlight here just a couple of points that made me reflect upon the topic the most (as we both seem to have similar thoughts towards cooperation and punishment). And those are 1) the question you asked about the service of the rule-breaker and the other 2) the observation you made about one having to face one's own inadequacy through the rules that are broken by others (the rubbish).
I just found these are very efficient approaches to deal with lack of conformity and the rule-breaker himself/herself. For, while the first point exposes the weaknesses of the system. The latter has potential to ignite empathy.
Thank you Erika :)
Hello! :D
Thank you. Yes, you have highlighted the points that are important to me and brought them into a good short form.
However, I am often torn between indignation and empathy. .......So difficult to stay calm.
On the one hand, I think that people who abuse the common good should not receive false signals. For example, by behaving opportunistically towards them. Then I think such abusers are basically so needy that they believe they can only be satisfied by excessive possession/power. But no matter how rich someone gets through exploitation, he will never have enough if he finds that the system is knitted in such a way and that from his point of view something has been taken away from him. ... A late revenge, so to speak. ... Since he cannot punish enough those who did this to him, he must punish others who are suitable as substitutes. Such are those whom he perceives as hypocrites. Unfortunately, he is often right and the system feeds a kind of cynicism. Since the other, less obvious rule-breakers, are reluctant to admit or reflect on their own rule-breaking.
So I can say: I value the rulebreaker as a disturber, but not the act of breaking the rules itself.
... I was trying to give as much as a short response I can. LOL.
Kisses!
oops...double post
Glad to know I'm not the only one who double posts every now and then :D
Hello Abi, my sister works as a teacher for young children and I know there are very strict guidelines in terms of punishing students. In fact your not supposed to even say "no" to students. I know when I was going through school (30-40 years ago!) physical punishment was still being dished out for relatively minor infractions. I wonder if we have gone too soft in that time?
Btw nice to see you back posting regularly!
Terry 😃 !! How wonderful to see you here :)
What an important question this one is! Thank you for raising it here.
I do think that sort of attitude is having gone too far. I find myself repeatedly trying to convey to caregivers, educators and even family members that punishment should be seen as means to inform children that there are consequences to what they do; especially when what they do infringes local norms and rules.
In my opinion, just go on rewarding children for what they have done right and leaving what they didn't do quite right "undealt" with is irresponsible caring. For it doesn't fully prepare them for the reality of life. I have just said to another reader in this very comment session: There is nothing wrong in sitting a boy down after he kicked a friend and calmly tell him: "there are other ways to deal with your frustration. What you did is not the appropriate one, because ... bla, bla, bla ... now, you stay here for 5 mins. and think about your actions, ok?"
If this prevents him from repeating that sort of behavior again.This, in Skinnerian terms, is a form of punishment. An event that reduced or eliminated the frequency of an undesired behavior. Children need to have this sort of guidance and information :) we owe to them!
Now, please allow me to be boring here Terry :)
There are such things as reinforces (positive and negative) and punishment. Reinforcement is something that is done to either give rise to or sustain behaviour. Punishment, on the other hand, aims at reducing or eliminating behaviour.
There is a general confusion between negative reinforcement and punishment. But here is the crucial difference between them:
Negative reinforcement : When a behaviour is encouraged through the removal of something unpleasant. (Note that positive reinforcement refers to the introduction of something to encourage a given action). For example, your daughters make sure they return home before midnight (behaviour) to prevent dad getting all frustrated and grumpy (unpleasant outcome).
Well, this comment of yours inspired me with the idea of what to write for my next post Terry. I think it would be interesting to discuss this topic here in the community: is it right to avoid saying no and get rid of punishment altogether?
Thanks for the idea! And again, it's lovely to see you.
I trust everything is fine with you, the girls & the family in general.
All the best to you all :)
Look forward to the next article abi...have we gone too soft? Definitely, there's definitely been a large shift in cultural norms in my 50+ years. Just watch any 1970's television and you will see what I mean! Is the world a better place for, its hard to say but IMO probably.
Thanks for asking about girls and family :) Things are starting to get back to something like normality and we are all doing well.
hello Miss Abi, hope you are doing well. oh i got lots of absences in your blogs, guess i've to admit that , i am just really having much of my time for offline especially for Alex. anyway, i can tell you more of that privately hehe. thanks always.. 😘
I can actually relate on this topic of yours, applying it to myself being a mom , asking to punish or reward my kids , well honestly speaking Ms. Abi , i do them both i guess haha. i consider maybe slapping them in their butt or hand if they did something wrong , just to let them know that that is not okay or sometimes getting toys from their hands ( toys they did use for example to hit each other ) . But of course i always feel guilty at the end of each day for hurting them a bit. on the other hand. I also use reward , rewarding them because they did something nice and is listening to me , sometimes foods they love or hugs and kisses. hehe. i think that either would work depending on the personality of the people involve. but for me i use both haha, but i would like to learn to have less punishment for my kids...
thanks for another worth reading piece Miss. Abi. again thank you always and forever. we love you!!! lots of hugs and kisses from PH to Portugal , take care always ... 😘❤️❤️❤️
Hello my dear @zephalexia <3 :)
I most certainly noticed your absence. And looks like my assumptions were right! The offline world with the children is keeping you extra busy ;) It's wonderful to hear from you, though.
I know you are a loving mum, and I follow the belief that children also need to be informed about when they do something wrong. I do tend to tell mums to try to avoid little bum slapps 😆 I prefer the odd: "you sit down here and think about what you did, young lady.".
You are a great, great mum my dear. And there is nothing you should feel guilty about. You discipline and love your little ones. How lucky they are! They have a mum who thoroughly prepares them for the challenges of life.
Much love to you always from hot Portugal :* :D
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Hello you....
Your post slipped right under my radar this week...I must be getting old or something.
Soooooooo much to say on this excellent piece...
I'm gonna have to do a full post on my blog, to give it justice.... and I'll link it on here.
It might be a day or two, though.
A very thought provoking article, respect.
I hope you're doing well
x
Hello there @lucylin :D
Even though my schedule is getting tight now with the end of the summer holidays, I'm doing fine thank you :)
I am so pleased to hear you enjoyed reading this post. I am awaiting to see what you're going to come up with. I remember once you did something like this about my post on Envy. It was quite cool having my work deconstructed like that!
Hope you're guys are all good too!!
Take care.
x
...silly moods are not what's required for the measured deconstruction!
(it's sooooo demands a full reply.)
Don't worry , I'll get serious sometime soon....honest..lol
https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/misconstrued-marketing-research-group-asks-girls-which-do-you-prefer-to-use-on-yourself
....everything very good, here, thanks.
Behaviour… My current problem (and not at the place in my life you may think about) :)
I am with you there too, although I would tend to say it depends on the level. For little things, threats of punishment may work for some time, but having people collectively behaving for the common good is much more beneficial. There is here no reason to bring punishment onto the scene. Rewarding the very good ones could yield the same effects than punishing the bad behaviours, of even have a better impact. However, we also need punishment for clear exaggerations at the same time, to define the limits no to cross.
This being said, I would like to emphasise that I rarely punish my kids. But sometimes, it is needed. There are clear lines that should not be crossed (and they (generally) know it).
Many people do offend because they don't even have accesses to the opportunity of being rewarded. If they truly felt social mobility is genuine and accessible to everyone they would not resort to breaking the rules and infringe social norms. In that case rewarding the very good ones could yield even better results indeed.
I am very pleased you have that instance towards your children's upbringing. Of course punishment is important for the development of a child. A child will not bloom into being socially functional if they are left to their own devices, or if only their good behaviour is addressed while the naughty one are ignored.
My next post will be about this. As I see a lot of caregivers refraining from saying "no" to the little ones, or avoiding to set limits to their actions altogether. This is not good for the children's self-esteem, resilience and overall future mental health.
Have a most wonderful week @lemouth.
Wish you and the family all the best, always.
And I can see the result of that at the university... It is not good, believe me.
I am looking forward to read your next post :)
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Thank you so much @steemstem :)
Great analysis. I've noticed that natural consequences seem to be taken more seriously by some people than human-invoked consequences. For example, people who are more prone to drama seem more likely to flaunt the law or parental rules. But you can't escape natural consequences - like gravity - and we all seem to respect our "Mother" Nature, regardless of how rebellious we are. 🙂
This is very nice feedback @geke. It went straight into the heart of this entire discussion, with a very to the point conclusion :)
Thank you for stopping by :*