We disagree on masks and vaccine passports because our immortality tickets look different.

in #teamaustralia2 years ago (edited)

There's a basic human drive to continue existing.
In a dangerous situation our self-preservation instinct makes us capable of incredible feats of strength and endurance; and gets a lot of press.
What doesn't get the same attention is the persistent, long term desire to just keep existing forever.


This desire plays out in different ways for different people. Traditionally, with death in double digits inevitable, there were only a couple of different immortality tickets on offer.
Religions offered Nirvana, Heaven, and other ethereal tickets; or reincarnation for those who like it here.

The other ticket was parenthood. Your body goes in the ground but you leave copies behind, who leave their own copies, in a sort of intergenerational ponzi scheme.
Your genetic information is diluted over time, and you have no way of knowing how long the line will continue; but outside of religion it was the only ticket on offer.

A new ticket has emerged in the last few decades, and the FOMO is real. Whether we're talking a snap-frozen head in the middle of last century, or the latest advances in gene therapy, medical science has started a presale on immortality tickets, and business is booming, undercutting the popularity of the old tickets.

Will you live long enough to live forever?

What an intoxicating sales pitch. So far it's only a pitch; and being around in 2045 is much more likely for some of us than for others, which sheds some light on the different reactions and over-reactions we're seeing to Covid 19.
I'm not lining up in that queue. I'm not above it all, not by a long shot; but my bags are full.
As a Christian I'm confident of eternal life in heaven, and as a father of three healthy kids I'm well stocked with traditional tickets. I'm not in the new queue.
Don't get me wrong, if I'm still around in a few decades and somebody offers me an extra 100 years and the price is right, sure I'll dive on it; but I'm not a motivated buyer.
I'm not refreshing the screen over and over with my credit card in hand. I have other tickets.

Many don't. Religion and parenthood are on the decline in the West. The new queue is both a cause and a beneficiary of this, and I'll never see eye to eye with the desperate people staking out a spot in the new queue while I stand here with all these tickets. My luxury is their necessity.

Few in that queue would categorise it as a religion since there's no afterlife; but it's absolutely a faith. It's a faith in mankind's ability to do something we've never done before. So how does the queue look? How does one get to the front, and avoid anyone else cutting in?

They don't have anything as clear and helpful as 10 commandments; all they have is their best guess.
A history of absolute, vocal devotion to the medical community and the governments which fund it can't hurt.
Remaining childless to avoid contributing to the overpopulation of the earth.
If you're buying the parent ticket, that might cost you a place in the new queue. No self-respecting faith wants to honour an each-way bet.

Are the mask/vaccine tirades and crusades actually auditions? Are the people taking selfies with their "free" donuts simply securing their place in a queue many of us older/religious people just don't see?

Like Roko's Basilisk, every public act and utterance now will presumably be available in 2045; for the inspection of the medical experts selecting immortality candidates. Except while Roko's Basilisk encourages us to discuss it, suggesting there's a queue for medical immortality tickets is a terrible idea.

A millenial (Someone alive for a thousand years?) who even intimates the existence of the new queue outs themselves as potentially being progressive for some future reward; while alerting potential competitors to its existence.
So if they are queueing, they're not talking about it. We just have to deduce their belief in its existence from their behaviour.

Somebody in the new queue would likely be vegan and vocal about it. (cattle/farm land contributing to climate change etc) They'd happily support depopulation measures like abortion or maiming confused children with puberty blockers (fewer competitors for resources hundreds of years from now).

They'd know they're in unspoken competition with each other, so they'd ruthlessly hunt down and cancel each other over the slightest deviation from today's woke orthodoxy, and thanks to the sunk cost fallacy, the more they gave up to stay and progress in the new queue, the more they'd fight for their place in it.

With no way of knowing how far away medical immortality might be, the selection criteria by which they'll be assessed, how many others are in line ahead of them, or if they'll wake up one morning to find themselves demoted for something said or done a decade ago; we can expect them to be riddled with anxiety.
Fear of accidental death before medical immortality eventuates, will have them obsessed with rules and safety.

They wouldn't want their immortality tickets lost to the highest bidders, so they'd be passionate about meritocracy and equality, pushing political agendas that take money from the wealthy to fund science and medicine, while electing leaders running on socialist platforms. Either we need to have done away with money by 2045, or money has to be irrelevant in the new queue.

Does this look like somebody at peace with their own mortality? I'm not in any way mocking this lady. She's clearly having a difficult time coping, and if it weren't for the tickets I'm holding I could very easily share her mindset.
There but for the grace of God go I.

What scares me about all this, is how vulnerable that makes them to the threats of the state; and how ready they are to embrace a social credit system like the one in China. They're already acting as if it's in place.
Formalising it would do them a huge favour, taking much of the ambiguity away.
They're also playing with much higher stakes. The state can only take a few decades away from me, and it has to kill or imprison me to do so; it can take hundreds and hundreds of years away from them. It doesn't even need to kill or incarcerate them.
It can just bump them to the back of the queue and watch nature take them in their first century.
They're not just facing the organic threat of dying before 2045; they're also facing the threat of arriving healthy and being denied treatment.

Our fear of death has been weaponised against us for thousands of years.

The state's always threatened to punch our immortality tickets early, now it's selling tickets, too. That makes it more dangerous than it's ever been; and somewhat ironically more vulnerable than ever before.

The state is a belief system, imposed on believers and non-believers alike, by armed zealots.
What happens when those zealots, imagining living forever; are asked to attack individuals who already have their traditional tickets in hand?
When the bullets start flying, which side will have the heroes?
I expect the state will offer shorter deployments; Five year's exemplary service and you can retire, while offering priority position in the new queue.

Will armed service to the state become the minimum criteria for common folk to qualify for medical immortality?
If so, how do you think the lady in the elevator will fare?
Will she have spent decades chasing a goal only to find the cost of the ticket getting higher and higher until she can't afford it?
Will we see the most vocal, consistent, virtuous, brave, eloquent, chaste defenders of the state become the new 1%?
What about this guy? Do you think he has a wife at home, tracking her cycles, hoping to get pregnant?

Me neither.

They even have an Ark.




The wealthy can atone for their greed by subsidising the virtuous as they escape together. Why does that sound familiar?

Many older people, even non-religious and childless folk aren't in the new queue simply because they've seen enough snake oil in their time to smell it from a distance.
Maybe they're resigned to their own mortality, or maybe they've just been paying attention long enough to know that wherever there's a desperate need, some con man is going to set up shop and offer vague promises to perhaps, possibly, one day fill that need. They know a cult when they see one.

If you've been trying to jostle to the front of that queue, there are a few things you need to know.

The people who want to control you, have spent most of your life planting these seeds of hope in your mind. You haven't been a passive observer of news; you're the target audience for a slow burn sales pitch.

Accidental/workplace deaths are on the decline; but it's never been easier to kill someone. Anybody can 3D print a fully functional semi-automatic rifle from home, with minimal skills and no special parts; and this technology is only going to improve in the next few decades.

What if its too dangerous to be a policeman, and the nation state has collapsed by the time 2045 rolls around?
The tech might still be getting funded, but you know it's rolling out to the rich first. You don't just need to be virtuous, you need to also have faith that a powerful meritocracy will be in place at the time, to award those tickets to the virtuous at the expense of the wealthy.
Then you need to hope that the wealthy don't thin the queue by eliminating the virtuous ahead of them.

If you carefully examine this idea, you'll understand that in order to actually, personally achieve medical immortality a lot of stuff has to happen, and a lot of other stuff has to not happen.
Even in the unlikely event medical immortality actually becomes available in your lifetime, there's an excellent chance that like any new technology; it's quickly scaled up and disseminated to everyone, cheaply. Making it less scarce than you've been lead to believe.
You might find you sacrificed your freedoms, integrity, conscience and friendships for something readily available to all. Living forever, among people who hate you.
A Faucian pact.


I think a part of this is the "meaning of life" purpose too - where religion and family can give meaning tickets not just a sense of afterlife and immortality. I reckon that a lot of the people who are bandwagoning on all kinds of causes at the moment are doing so in order to give some context to their lives, since for the most part, they aren't creative, they are consumptive, and it is hard to have a purpose as a consumer.

So true.

Abandonment of traditional values and religion has left people moorless and lonely, easy pickings for the latest dangerous, self destructive ideologies of the moment.

This has often happened before but self destructive ideologies don't survive and thus leave little imprint on the historical record.

People that follow them leave little imprint on the genetic record too as they have few if any descendants.

It is no coincidence that successful ideologies promote having children.

It is going to get interesting going forward, as in the past cultism was relatively contained to localized communities, but now the ability to connect, organize and manage is global.

Absolutely. Fighting purposelessness by picking up whatever's laying on the ground, and running with it. Leaves one very open to suggestion though, particularly when they are mostly consumptive. Whatever's lying on the ground is often left there deliberately.

Like a coin glued to the pavement.

I'm late to the party as always, but it means I get to read through all the replies.

I had to look up Roko's Basilisk and it's quite the brain melter. 😅 These things certainly play on our fears, or at least our instincts to live.

This is so well stated, but I would also posit that the virtue signalling extends beyond the need to live. For some it's also about regaining a form of freedom. Recently my sister, in the UK, had her first jab. I was a little surprised how quickly she jumped in for it and when she told me she was almost apologetic and said that she just wanted her freedom back. I asked her if that was basically what they were being told, that you have to have it if you want your freedom and she replied that it was more that they were aiming for a certain percentage of the population vaccinated before they'd lift restrictions. Then she really surprised me with a sticker added to her Facebook profile which proclaimed that she'd had her vaccine. This is a woman with a PhD. She has been so cut off from people for the last year+ and banned from the ballroom dancing that keeps her going. A form of living death for her.

Only the extremely wealthy are in a situation of true freedom to be able to do whatever they wish and I think that's just as desirable for some as immortality. They can ascend the laws that the common populous are forced to live by. We've seen the wealthy and high profile allowed into Australia, because they can pay the higher fares, while Australians stranded abroad are stuck there with no concession given. So the idea of being virtuous as an alternative option for whay the elite have makes sense, despite the fact that this isn't even an offer that's on the table.

Thank you sir for delivering this article. I found it out thanks to @tarazkp reblog. I have very similar thoughts about the current ongoings in the world but always struggle to laid them out in a neat and concise way. You did a great job here and surely inspiring for me.

Living forever, among people who hate you.

That's it. Most of the people dream about living forever, but I think that's coming only from their fear of death. I, on the other hand, approach the life differently and always try to seek for a purpose. When I ask myself: should I do this, or that, devote myself to this or that, I always end up asking myself what is the final purpose. And when I think to myself what would be the purpose to live forever... I see none. Life only makes sense when it has its limits, its boundaries which cannot be crossed. This lets us find life's meaning, or at the very least construct it.

We are beings that are bound by time. If you, theoretically, are able to live forever, you're no longer bound by time. The time stops existing in a sense, because it no longer plays any role. Then what do you do? You just keep on existing in a non-time space, doing all the same things on and on, and on, and on...

Quickly you'll start longing for a world where the time is still a thing, where you'll finally pass away, so being born and living a live actually makes a difference. Who know, maybe, once the technology allows for it, you'll create for yourself a simulation of a world, where you can actually die? And we und up in the same place.

And the wheel just keeps on turning... ;)

All the best!

Thanks, mate. Insightful angle.

The needle returns to the start of the song; and we all sing along like before.

What deep, insightful and intelligent analysis!

You are an intellectual giant my friend (and I thought you were just a cool Aussie Splinterlands Maverick). :-)

You've inspired me to turn what was an over length comment into a full post on this topic: https://peakd.com/deepdives/@apshamilton/a-response-to-mattclarkes-brilliant-piece-on-different-immortality-tickets

Lot of good thought has gone into this, wacky world to say the least.

My point of view is... we are born to die, life cycle for every living thing.

You might find you sacrificed your freedoms, integrity, conscience and friendships for something readily available to all.

Better to try uplift others who are unable to, rather than put yourself first. A balanced life in everything, nature and ideology, standing in queue or worse still following herd mentality is not something to be desired.

Be careful of the devil you wish for....

First of all, "Modern Allopathic Medicine" only deals with ⅐th of the human body.
How can such ignorant people talk about longevity in any meaningful way?

Next, what is going to happen is that people who try to live longer by these methods funded and tried by the aristocracy will now shorten people's lives.
That heart, the one you took from a kid who had no freedom, well that heart is going to remember... and just quit. (and since they didn't keep their half of the bargain for that soul's life, then it is going to come back really painful.)
The elite's lives will be cut short.
"Modern Allopathic Medicine" will shorten people's lives.

The Plandemic has already taken about 5 years off of everyone's lives.
This will become apparent. And then God help those Media talking heads. Body guards will not be enough.

The "Vaccines" (and i use quotes because they had to change the definition of vaccines to call these things vaccines) are going to kill a lot of people and sterilize even more. God help those who administered these "Vaccines".

Lastly, good people who do things such as meditate and live a balanced life with love and joy will start living longer. Much longer. And this will be done in a myriad of ways such as much better food. Energy (sound & light) healing. A far better understanding of the body that will make modern medicine look even worse than leaches.

Further, i must talk about the metaphysical. Not everyone looks for eternal life.
There are many reasons to die.
And once you know God's plan, and how the wheel of life works, you will understand it as walking through a door of your greater life(s)

These things are confirmable to yourself as personal experiences.
There is only a veil keeping your from seeing the bigger picture, from seeing God. And the veil can be moved aside by you.

A very good comment, I agree on all points. Modern medicine is like a shopkeeper's shop and the patient is this shop on which they hold themselves harmless. The body is handled like a vessel that can be filled with all kinds of drugs, and the organs and all parts of the body are regarded like a spare parts store, like an object. The pain, the trauma that modern medicine leaves people with often saves their lives, but the price to pay is a lifelong fear of the body failing again and a lifelong dependence on drugs. The modern person who surrenders one hundred percent to medicine is content with a henceforth miserable life because he fears death too much.

The bloody act of organ transplantation on the previous, still living human being, a downright cannibalisation of all available parts, a gruesome business. Only those who reject their compassion and humanity can be capable of such a thing.

There is not a single reason for me to live forever.

We are just meaty puppets made out of endlessly recycled molecules. There's no need to search for immortality when the only way an atom can be destroyed is for a pretty big explosion to accompany that event.

As an atheist, I take extraordinarily solace in the fact that one day, one of the atoms that is a part of me today may be an atom in the piece of shit clinging to the ass of some elite as they frantically search for a particular type of scented, embossed, and "essential" toilet paper.

Big tissue don't want you to know this one trick.

I'm not scared of dying, I'm just angry about it because unless aging is cured I'm not going to have time to get all the stories out (at the rate I'm going I'm not even sure I'll get out the one I'm working on >_<). That's literally the only reason I want to live "forever". I'll be ready to shuffle off when I'm out of good stories XD

I love your closing paragraphs.

Thanks. I know what you mean about the stories. Problem is, if we're all telling stories, who has time to listen?

I think when we're choosing the company we keep they're also usually ones we want/don't mind listening to?

In my case I need to get these stories out XD listeners/readers/viewers are amazing bonuses.

Nice post but imo the drawbacks youve presented are quite unconvincing and anyone (outside the most extreme) would take any chance at immortality if presented.
Im pretty sure we will figure something out eventually. What it will be is the question.

But ill take a bet on the ingenuity of human kind over promises of any gods, any day of the week.

I'm not so sure. For myself as an example I would like to live for 6,000 years, with a renewal option every 6,000 years. That way if I get to bored, I can call times up.

After all someone may find the key to natural immortality.

6,000 years! That's a long wait if you've had enough. Can it be more like 100 or less. 😅

I think there should be consequencies to people decisions, 6,000 years may be to long, 100 years is far to short a time. perhaps a 3,000 year cycle or a 2,600 year precessional cycle.

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I see your reasoning. I wonder how many can handle the consequences, though. It might lead to higher suicide rates.

Seems to me as if the Internet Social Media places like facebook, twitter and others already have a lot of people committing social media suicide with rage quitting, then coming back, and then rage quitting again, over and over. It seems to teach them that there is no real problem with rage quitting; in real life rage quitting via suicide is forever there is no coming back to do it all over and over again.

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Matt, this is so beautifully written, it's been a while since I've seen such incredible wordsmithery from you... if I could upvote this more I totally would.

I have to say though, I'm friends with lots of different types of people, we've certainly got a weird melting pot of personalities and ideologies in the peeps we hang with regularly... including lots of childless, non-religious types and maybe it's just a US thing, but immortality would be terrifying to these people. They're not even sure they'll ever be able to retire.

No, in my experience the mask and vaccine freak outs are all about just trying to survive the next few months. Accounts like this are the basis for those fears... I just don't think anyone I personally know is thinking about immortality at all.

Thanks, mate. I'm not so much talking about the people who are wearing masks, getting vaccinated, social distancing etc; The ones trying to protect themselves.
I'm trying to make sense of some of the more extreme posturing; and speculate on where it's really coming from. I look at some of these people and wonder how much we can possibly have in common. It's difficult to comprehend what drives them. I'm certainly open to being wrong.

Ah! Sorry, I missed that.

Yeah, the kinder side of me thinks it might be related to the stress and anxiety of the situation, especially in the overly-tribalistic US... but the less kind side of me thinks there is always people that take things way way way too far... but now we're getting footage of these outbursts, which is new.

Gran Análisis.

Me llamó poderosamente l atención, y lo comparto tremendamente una frase al principio de tu exposición: "La religión y la paternidad están en declive en Occidente." Qué realidad tan triste y cierta esta. En ella se dan las bases o los ingredientes de la receta del desastre mundial que tenemos ahora.

Un fraternal saludo.

Si algo has de decir, procura que sea mejor que el silencio. Simplemente le digo amigo mío: EXECELENTE!

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There's no shame in dying

Maybe ,by going in the search of immorality, the wealthy people are misinterpreting the true essence of life, that is, I think the true essence stored not in the duration of life, but in the quality of life which is built on the basis of love, compassion and joy. Am I right ?