Takeback by Buyback?

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(Edited)

Is anyone else tired?

I am.

I finally got a chance to listen into the Steem Witness discussions with Tron. I did it at 1.75x speed as I didn't really have the energy and patience to listen for all that time. Lucky it wasn't a negotiation... too many emotions .... and the price feeds of the new witnesses still haven't been updated.

One thing does look pretty clear though... There is going to be 65+ million STEEM hiting the exchanges at the nearest ROI point.

Perhaps that is the best thing for it, even though it would decimate the price of STEEM for some time to come - at least it would be distributed to people who are willing to pay for it. How much penny-coin STEEM would you be willing to buy?

100,000 STEEM for $1000 dollars?

I would buy what I could. The reason is that once that STEEM is changing hands freely in the market place, it will slowly pool into locations that would sink or apply it through, Steem Power, games, applications and all kinds of places.

Sure, it would create a mass of downward pressure on the price now, but maybe it will mean that from then on, the price can build in a more sustainable way as the majority of STEEM owners will have bought it and nearly all of the pre-mine will have been "laundered" through the exchanges to be indistinguishable.

As I said the the other day, Steem is fungible and interchangeable - but the accounts where it resides are essentially non-fungible tokens. Currently we know where the Steemit Inc mined STEEM is held, once it hits the exchanges, it is no longer marked.

Yeah, I know, there are promises made on that STEEM, but I am not sure how those promises would or could be enforced. Perhaps it is better to take the economic hit and the learning experience and let bygones be bygones. Many won't like this option of course and it would be far, far better if instead of getting dumped on the market at least some of it would be used to actually build the chain, community and support sustainability, but sometimes the best option is to take the loss.

Justin Sun was talking about "just getting out"and I wonder if there would be an option that would allow his exit and can be some kind of benefit to the community. For example, What if the first option to buy that STEEM was given to the community at cost price.

Let's say he paid 5 million to Nob Ned...Ned Nob... for 65 million Steem. That would put the price per STEEM at ~7.5 cents. There could be a sale in rounds with limits on the buys that would allow for it to be distributed across the Steem community. After the buying rounds are complete, it would of course get dumped by many onto the market and tank price anyway, but at least it would be us as the community doing the tanking and, there will be some who buy and power up, then buy more off the exchanges.

This would mean that anyone who bought that STEEM would be a true Steem investor with their hard earned fiat and will take some of the responsibility for the future of the platform with their purchase. While some people won't like the idea of buying ninja-mined stake, remember that 2/3rds of all the Steem in existence is from the mining period. Anyone who has bought has likely bought some from the mine - like the molecules of water probably went through a dinosaur once upon a time.

That might be a stupid idea. But at the same time, at least we as a community could design a way that would see that STEEM in the hands of the majority of the community who can then decide how it will be used in a truly decentralized manner.

Whatever seems to be the upcoming scenario though, noe of it is going to be pretty and it does look like a dump on the market is inevitable. But as said, maybe that the long-term condition of Steem will be better for it rather than at the next highs, that Steem being sold in dribs and drabs, while still remaining a large economic and emotional burden on the community.

This way, Justin Sun gets out of his investment relatively cleanly and the community gets the opportunity that it always wanted, seven cent STEEM. what we do with it once it is in our hands is then up to us. I know a few hodlers - I know many sodlers. It would be a race to the price bottom, but once there... it might all look upward.

How low can it go, and how high would you buy?

Some want to escape. Some want to keep building.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

Onboarding

hive-174578 steem oc posh steemleo tokenomics investing busy
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Crazy development. Sad for the asset price.

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Price hits happen and they are all small in comparison to the upside of getting this type of shit sorted out so we can actually do what we could be doing.

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(Edited)

The best case would be an OTC sale of his stake to another benevolent organization who could use the nina mine for its original purpose and had coded restrictions in the dumping (max 5% per year or something to raise funds to fund development ) . Fat chance of it happening however. But if the plan is for it to hit the exchanges and get dumped in one go people will just fork it out and run their own token as the original token is worthless anyway.

I am actually bullish on all of this; I never expected the community to put up such a fight. If people are fighting over something it means it has intrinsic value.

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benevolence is fickle when crypto is involved. I know that it wouldn't be pretty to begin with, but it would allow for more market forces to price Steem and once it is all (mostly) out in the wild, there is a chance for a real floor to be found.

. If people are fighting over something it means it has intrinsic value.

Yup.

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(Edited)

It's a bit like in a relationship where one party says, "but you said you would love me forever," and the other party says, "I know I did and I meant it when I said it, but I just don't feel that way any more." I mean, you can keep on insisting and have two unhappy parties or you could say, "you know what? Let's call it a day. I know we'll both be financially worse off for a time, but eventually it'll get better and we can both get on with having a better time."

Not sure whether JS would be worse off but why not? It would be a lesson learned the way we all learn them.

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When it comes to money, many will rather cut the couch in half. People aren't very good at relationships these days :)

!ENGAGE 25

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I don’t think Justin wants this - I think he will take part in the processes on Steem - now no one will open all the cards for us. You need to change the rules of the game - everyone should have rewards and votes (and not just their favorites) They killed people on Steem with their behavior.
(Sorry for my English)

Posted via Steemleo

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I think he just wants to exit now. It has been too complicated for him - but I bet he had some fun in the background organising the takeover.

!ENGAGE 25

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(Edited)

I listened to the witness call this morning too. I was very impressed with our witnesses. They practiced diplomacy and restraint, and stated the importance of their key points very clearly and without undue emotion. Justin clearly wants a business relationship, not governance or ruling authority. It’s also clear that Ned sold Steemit without informing Justin about some very key expectations and agreements behind it. Not to totally let Justin off the hook; as one witness pointed out, essentially - ignorance of the law does not put you above it. I hope the conversations continue and one way or another it’s all resolved as satisfactorily as possible.

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I am guessing he wasn't expecting much fight. He has bought a lot of things - but this is his first attempt at purchasing a real community.

!ENGAGE 25

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I agree. I think he had to have been caught off guard by the passion and drive of our witnesses to get things back to where they need to be.

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(Edited)

I think letting the markets handle it is a fine idea.

However, to be fair neither you or I are living off of Steem, so I'm not sure it would fly with others.

Edited to add, I'm not being snarky about people living on Steem. Those who are running businesses, witnesses, etc, have hard costs that matter. It goes beyond idealism at this point.

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Living off Steem is a hard road to take (imo, as you know)

We talk about having freemarkets, but while that stake is there, it will always be a burden. Forking it out is likely illegal or at the very least, unethical for the majority of Steemians. Let it ride, where the losses and then a new floor can be created through a (more) free market. I think if timed well, the recovery time might be pretty decent.

!ENGAGE 25

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I have no issue with that as a solution.

I am open to many solutions as long as they do not include voiding/deleting/burning/forking someone's asset.

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as long as they do not include voiding/deleting/burning/forking someone's asset.

I agree. Not on Steem. A chain fork can do what they want... but not on Steem.

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Thankfully it's not up to you stake-less morons.

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As much as I would prefer that stake gone, I don't think it would be great for Steem publicity to burn someone's property. If it had been Ned still holding, I would have been okay with it as he knew it wasn't his property. Perhaps the community would recover though, as it might be good for price as it would lower supply 25%. But as you noted, price doesn't help the stake-less morons. :/

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I'd be okay with something like this. If Justin really wants out, I'd be willing to help him. And placing limits on how much one person can buy would definitely help prevent one entity from buying everything and having the same thing happen again.

I'd spend $1000 on Steem, easily...

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Yep, it would have to be organized so it was going to distribute somewhat fairly to those who are willing to actually buy.* Perhaps there could be a percentage from each purchase that goes into the SPS automatically.

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Well, that sucks. I just powered up by emptying a wallet. I will have to buy some more BTC the hard way and get some orders ready to buy quick at the low of low prices.

Something this experience has told me that the steem community is no joke. When shit goes down people organize, regardless of what they think.

In the long run this is going to be a great thing for the community. I will buy 100k for $1000. I'm already thinking about how much I can re-allocate to buy when the time comes.

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I would find some funds and do all I could to get my hands on some of that cheap Steem =)

I am a hodler though and I look long.

!ENGAGE 25

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I just hope that who ever ends up winning the users are not the losers. I would hope that after all this that someone at least has seen that the impossible can and did happen, (no one person can control the chain). That they have learned that knee jerk reactions and economic sanctions do not, and never have, and never will work in the walking world or the typing/clicking world.

People are talking about moving on, of bringing closure to this incident, I have yet to see any post from anyone on what is next. Nothing about SMT's, if Tron wins they are done with in my opinion as he has his own system he wants people to use. If steem block chain witnesses win, they are going to have, higher priorities than the SMT project.

The everyday user wants to keep the chain decentralized, this is evident in the number of people voting, updating their votes for witnesses. Activity of a normal posting nature continues, votes are made, post are made and comments are made. The user is not looking for hand holding from any group or individual, what they would like, (well I would), is to see someone with a vision of what comes next where are we headed after this.

There is at least one witness that wants to tuck his head in the sand and hard fork pre 22.2/tron takeover. We can not ignore that which we do not like, if something is broken it needs to be repaired, and forking out is not going to fix anything. Most countries have citizenship requirements before you can vote in regular election. This may be one simple easy temporary fix, a six month waiting period of being an active member on the block chain before being allowed to cast a vote for witnesses. Active member of course would need to be defined.

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I just hope that who ever ends up winning the users are not the losers.

It might depend on how you look at it.

That they have learned that knee jerk reactions and economic sanctions do not, and never have, and never will work in the walking world or the typing/clicking world.

I don't think they have learned this. Part of crypto is that there is freedom of choice outside of the normal rules of the game.

Nothing about SMT's

There was talk in the PAL discord about continuing development and release with the devs.

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At 7.5 cents i would buy 40,000
At 1 cent i would buy 1 million
I would Power Up and HODL (which i am doing anyway having paid 17 - 23 cents) as i would be using my pension fund.

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While some would dump fast, I think that holders looking long will end up holding the majority.

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One thing we'll have to solve is: development of STEEM.. since there won't be money backing it.

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Better start using the SPS well then :)

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This is 1 likely alternative to prepare for.
First, let's keep it to 13 weeks as current while we help justin explore the idea that it is not legally for sale. This could present a problem if he sells it, but an oppertunity if he doesn't. In the meantime 1/13th per week.

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I think it is legally for sale. The stake the community has on that stake might not be legally binding. But the Stake JS bought could very well be his. He doesn't care about social agreements.

Imagine 5M Steem on the market each week. I think he would still get out with a profit.

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Yeah, I'm also leaning towards it is now legally his. Witnesses should have probably just removed voting rights if anything. But here we are. I'd rather be on the witnesses side as I was liking how things were going. I don't think Justin or Tron will help us now.

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I don't see much real cooperation is possible. If anything, a terse withdrawal and a call of draw to save face.

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Yes. Call off the marriage. Don't hard fork anything over this. Complex decisions on governance cannot be made when knives are out.

Let him keep 5~15 witnesses to protect his stake. Agree not to vote on anything else, but sell as desired to profit. Not sure if they can agree on a rate to sell at (like 1 million a month) until the legality is cleared up. If it ends uo being determined it is ours he probably has the cash to rebuy and transfer.

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I don't think a suitable arrangement will be reached. What he wants, many in the community will not agree to. It is obvious by the requests that they do not understand the mechanics at all.

It is also obvious where what they do understand is coming from. Removing downvotes is an absolutely terrible idea.

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Yeah I'm really skeptical. He is a clever business guy. Witnesses are clever IT guys (some are damn good negotiators and business guys, too). But worst, he bought something a community believes it owns or at least benefits from like 'the commons' and has absolutely no idea what he is doing, in this case, having never done it before (has a social network community blockchain been sold?).

It reminds me a little of this pipeline project in Canada that has all the natives protesting across the country. Or when a corporation wants to drill for oil. Even if they own it, people nearby have been enjoying the community as it stands and now get understandably pissed off when he wants to bulldoze it because it becomes a serious environmental concern (this is assuming he legally is entitled).

It's a new territory. We should definitely make it a long and painful process. He isn't stealing candy from a baby.

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It si all a very good test for how community interaction and governance works. I am kind of glad that this came up now, rather than later - or after Ned just ran it all into the ground. I am hoping that we will all come out the other side of this not only stronger, but better off. There are plenty of win-win options, as long as people negotiating keep their freaking egos in check.

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Yeah, I have a crackpot theory that this is an experiment. In any case, I expect it will be a case study. Social network blockchains are not studied very often. I don't even know what field could research this case or how it would be done.

Maybe Justin can make a 'Steemit Movie' like the facebook one.

I know what my favourite scene will be...

Do you like @abitcoinskeptic or do you want to fuck him!!!!!!!

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I think you're right. Justin is doing to dump it at some point. And let him. He doesn't want us and we don't want him as his ways of doing things seem to be a bit dictatorish. Or is it dickish. Ned also. Seems a bit cowardish with his actions.

I would buy as much as I could at that point. And power it up. This is the funnest community I've ever been in and I think I've only scratched the surface. I'm not ready to quit.

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It is a lot of fun and I would be buying too. People buy shit on Farmville... buy Steem, it is heaps better to play :D

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One thing does look pretty clear though... There is going to be 65+ million STEEM hiting the exchanges at the nearest ROI point.

If that happens, I’d be tempted to buy a truck so that I’d be able to back up the truck to load it up with STEEM.

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A few hundred thousand Steem doesn't sound too bad :)

!ENGAGE 25

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I would buy. Never even thought of being malicious within steemit. As a hodler it's just an opportunity to be outward and kind for me.

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For it to have value, people have to value it. Many don't .

!ENGAGE 25

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I also just finished listening to the 3Speak recording and agree that Justin wants out. I believe he is currently able to start a power down and remove his stake over the next 13 weeks like any of us. The whole amount would not hit the market at once and would hopefully not tank the price too fast. If he wants to make nice he could remove some of his puppet witnesses and just leave a few to block hard fork consensus as the current witness running 22.444 have given back his ability to remove his stake.

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With that amount hitting the exchanges, it would be a quick decline, especially since buyers will know that the next week, there would be more on the market again. Wouldn't you wait til week 13 to buy?

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If everybody knows about the 13 week, most would wait. Will be interesting to watch. ;)

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At this rate, I am not sure how many would be here.

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All of us voting to stop a hard fork and those who love this community will hang around. Sun and the exchanges should just start powering down and go away so we can continue to build STEEM to be what the community has been hanging around for.

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We might end up on a steem fork.

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I agree that ned's previous "promises" would / could be enforced - as far as I know, I have not seen any legal binding document.

And speaking of lots of steem going to market... I think witnesses should buy them (at least some of). But I do not think justin would dump, as his share is too big and he would suffer too much loss.

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The loss would depend on the price he paid. From what I hear, it wasn't very much.

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I think I was tired as soon as I found out about it, because I find people generally exasperating XD

I've thought about buying for a while. Still have an overwhelming aversion to KYC and also the gamer part of me that wants to see how far I can get without "paying to win" (this isn't unique, I basically treat everything as a game, just slightly more carefully due to lack of save points and res, and yes I am aware there is no logic behind it).

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I understand the gamer mentality well enough, buying feels a bit like cheating - but from a long-term investment perspective - has to be considered. :)

!ENGAGE 25

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The KYC aversion is much, much stronger than my gamer mentality XD (because I can easily shift the latter to a more modern "in-app purchase" XD)

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Thanks for the good text as always. I am personally quite pessimistic about any price development without having the money in the background.

You may have seen the development for different kind of Steem-Engine based Nitrous projects and that is going to be in, my personal opinion, how a price will be set. (They can't keep the token price because they can't defend it nor find enough users to keep the price up)

Steem is a sell out token. And yes, there are investors buying Steem but you will have to look where the money is coming from. (It is an issue we had talked about so I will keep that out)

That specific layer of investors that were buying Steem before because of different reasons will definitely leave.

I have myself powered up a small amount of Steem during the last 2 years, but the current shaking is moving myself to a situation where I would rather have the possibility to power down and exit when needed.

Sure, it would create a mass of downward pressure on the price now, but maybe it will mean that from then on, the price can build in a more sustainable way as the majority of STEEM owners will have bought it and nearly all of the pre-mine will have been "laundered" through the exchanges to be indistinguishable.

Having hodlers that have bought on high prices, unfortunately, does not mean that a token price will rise. Getting a real low price, as an example here in one of the comments would lead to the leave of the rest of the few active users that this platform has. Not speaking from witnesses that will have to work 'really' voluntarily because the 8200 Steem per month will not cover anything.

Steem would be a nice and small project, open-sourced, free of speech and all you need, but without users. (Why are most of the influential Steemians active on Twitter? Because that is where people are they want to have listened to their voice)

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Steem would be a nice and small project, open-sourced, free of speech and all you need, but without users. (Why are most of the influential Steemians active on Twitter? Because that is where people are they want to have listened to their voice)

Perhaps it always will be this, it is hard to say. What I do think though is that the centralization of the chain is not worth the payout. There are enough YouTube's Twitters and the like in the world... time to change the model in some way. For me, the experiment of change is worth the risk of a zero outcome.

It is tiring though. It would be nice to move on from these kinds of discussions and instead just build the ecosystem.

!ENGAGE 25

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I currently have limit buys and sells in both directions on the BTC/STEEM market expecting some fluctuations, and also I'm hoping to catch a large market dump with limit buys at low prices.

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A dump is likely at some point. How low is going to depend on the next few weeks I guess.

!ENGAGE 25

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Well, Mrs. Denmarkguy and I are selling some old family artwork our kids have clearly stated they don't want... which means we would actually have "investment money" for the first time in many years, when that happens. Which will be later in the spring, or early summer.

At 5 cents, I'd probably have some $25K to throw at Steem, as a long shot for distant future appreciation. A person could curate and support a lot of worthy content with 500,000 Steem...

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Would be interesting to have 100 quality whales :)

!ENGAGE 25

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What if the Steem Proposal System makes an offer? Then the tokens can gradually be bought and owned by the community. And the price can be negotiated.

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Even using the entire SPS fund, it would take many years at these prices.

!ENGAGE 25

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Well, I am thinking there will be a negotiated price lower than the market prices. So it wouldn't be that many years.

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Too many for what he wants to do.

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It occurred to me that if he is being paid in liquid SBD or even liquid STEEM, then the really cool thing about this is that if he helps drive the price up, he will get a really good return.

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