Can We Please Not Use Hive Reward Pool For Another HBD Stabilization Attempt?

in LeoFinance8 months ago


There was a time, long time ago that I decided not to visit Trending page at all. Because it was filled with purchased bid-bot voted posts, and automated posts. Those time ended a while ago, and once again Trending page was a good place to see the most valued and interesting posts and most popular authors. For an author-wannabe like myself, trending would be a place to see and learn how to become a better author. It has also been a place to see what's the latest on Hive.

There also were days when posts were earning hundreds of dollars. That too was in the past. Author could hope those days would return with appreciation of the underlying asset - Hive.

Today, those trends on Hive has changed. There is a new author, or auto in town - @hbd.funder. Two posts from this talented author are trending at the very top. One earning $493, and another $373. Wow. This great, no? Now authors can earn even more?

The third post though is making only $91, which has been a norm for a the best of the best. And nobody else is earning more than $100. How could this be? That @hbd.funder must be super talented author.

I write this because I love you. I write this because I care.

Well No! @hbd.funder is not an author. It is part of a project @hbdstabilizer and 100% beneficiary rewards go there. HBDStabilizer has a certain goal in mind, to make HBD pegged to $1 USD as it was originally designed. This project is already funded by the Decentralized HIVE Fund. It is a good project and I support it. I would love to see HBD to serve its original purpose which is to be pegged to $1 USD. Moreover, it bring profits and returns those profits to DHF. Awesome, right? Yes. But do we really need to rewards pool for that?

My understanding is that DHF funding is not being enough to peg the HBD. We have seen last couple days HBD price was around $1.5. Perhaps for this reasons, they started @hbd.funder to fund it more.

But not the Hive Reward Pool! Please!

While we are trying to make one thing to work as it is designed, that is making HBD pegged to USD, we are ruining the design of something else. Reward pool is not designed for funding HBD Stabilization. Reward pool is for Authors and Curators.

When DHF first was created, it already took a way a decent chunk out of Reward Pool. Does anybody remember that?

So, my point is reward pool should not be utilized to fund projects. We have DHF for that which already took a way big percentages of reward pool funds. Any profits that HBDStabilizer makes go back to DHF not to the Reward Pool. So any amount hbd.funder takes away from reward pool is taking away from authors and curators.

We have already seen this in the past with experiments like BurnPost and SBDPotato. I am not saying these are bad ideas or projects. These are well thought out and worth trying experiments. But they haven't worked. We never were able to peg HBD.

I am not saying pegging HBD is not possible. Brilliant minds like @blocktrades and @smooth proposed great ideas to accomplish this goal. I fully support them. It will be great to have real stable coin. I can see great use for various use cases like e-commerce.

I don't think reward pool should be the source of funding these projects though. Please don't. Please leave the reward pool for authors and curators.

Moreover, trending space is also not designed for funding automated posts. We have had a clean and beautiful trending page for a year now. Let's keep they way it was.

I know this is not a popular opinion. Please don't hate. I only share these thoughts because I care. The pending rewards on those posts speak loudly how a lot of large stakeholders support it. They probably will continue for a while now.

I would like to leave you with one more thought. Vote for Leofinance witness. They are doing amazing things for Hive, the Community, and the Stakeholder. If you would like me tell you more about them, feel free to ask.

Hive is da best!

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Do you know how much is paid out every day in rewards? The hdbstablizer posts are an incredibly small fraction of that payout. So your content/rewards loss arguments is really a non-issue, IMO.

So, my point is reward pool should not be utilized to fund projects.

This is totally wrong, IMO. It's always been used to fund projects (in fact some stakeholders think it's the only way we should be funding projects, although I'm obviously not one of those people).

Eventually we created the DHF to help fund larger projects which were hard to fund sufficiently via posts. But it's still a great way to fund very small projects: it requires far less effort for everyone concerned.

It's becoming obvious to me that many people don't really understand the percentage profits made by the stabilizer posts and the stabilizer proposals, or I guess there wouldn't be complaints. Here's the math as I calculate it: Investment of 10K that returns 30% in a day. Even ignoring compounding, that is an APR of 10680% (30% * 356 days). And all that profit is being redirected into buying Hive, which drives the price of Hive, which in turn drives more profit for content creators and curators. This is not a zero-sum game.

Every time I see someone comment that this won't stabilize HBD, I just think to myself, that would really be cool for Hive holders, if it was true, because it would be an incredible money making machine.

But in my opinion, eventually at the current growth rates, the ever-growing selling pressure created by these efforts will inevitably push HBD down. And everyone that profits from Hive (stakeholders and content creators) will benefit from the incredible returns it generates while the process lasts.

According to there is 861,358 Hive = $340,236 in rewards fund.

At the same time (DHF) has 75,058,945 Hive and 1,418,916 HBD.

It seems to me DHF has more than enough to fund any project compared to rewards fund. Perhaps, we can change how much DHF can distribute on daily basis if daily distribution seems to cause limitations.

With stabilizing HBD we are trying to make something to work as intended. Shouldn’t we also care about how rewards funds is also used as intended?

I would love to see HBD to work with full of my heart. Because primarily I see its benefit in e-commerce which Hive is more than capable of powering. Does it really have to be at the expense of author rewards when we have plenty in DHF?

I have read your proposal. It sounds really great. Let’s implement it and see if we can actually have pegged HBD. What Smooth is doing is also great/ These two proposals can make this happen. Why not just use DHF?

Yes, I understand in grand scale of things rewards for couple of posts may not mean much. But optics also matter. Do we really want to showcase our best rewarded posts as a fix on a stable coin that we couldn’t deliver internally within the blockchain algorithm? Do we really need to be diverting rewards fund to fixing HBD on trending?

I believe the success of Hive and growth of stakeholder stakes will have to do with growth of the network, growth of the user-base, growth of the discoverability. Making rewards pool work as intended should be as high of a priority as any other projects.

For these reasons I believe we should not have Hive Stabilizer be on trending or to be funded form rewards funds. We have accomplished so much so far. There is no need to go back to old thinking, and old habits.

Ultimately stakeholders decide and they have the most to lose or gain. But I wouldn’t want to be working for the stakeholders who put more value on auto posts that bring them profits over many talents we have on Hive.

Lastly, I hope you know I have tremendous amount respect for you, for your team, and many many people of Hive. I am just sharing my thoughts. Please accept them as constructive criticism.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not offended. I just disagree with you on the economics.

The returns being generated in this case are "optics-positive" for investors interested in profits, IMO. And those investors are ultimately responsible for all funding to content providers, although many people don't seem to understand this.

Regarding your point about DHF funding, my original specification for the algorithm didn't divide "new money" by 100 for the daily budget, only "old money" already there. So it would have been capable of handling this situation easily, because it would have allowed for daily compounding.

I'm certainly open to changing the algorithm to work per my original spec (although such a change would need to be part of a hard fork).

FWIW, I came to post as FYI for readers what the ROI would be with compounding. I decided against bothering with the actual number after seeing what my calculator spit out, but it was something like 10^43 percent annually.

 8 months ago Reveal Comment

@timcliff want to jump in and clarify?

@cwow2 and @geekgirl Everyone here is making valid points and it is a healthy discussion. Nobody (that I'm aware of at least) is offended :)

@blocktrades already made a reply that is the top level comment to this post that pretty much sums up my view. There are also some "FAQ" questions in the latest post which address the same questions there.

This is going to be a controversial topic. There is a fairly high consensus among the stakeholders right now though that this is the right approach to take. If it works, ultimately it means a higher price for HIVE which actually adds more rewards to the rewards pool in the end.

I am not aganst this at all, but wasn't this the reason for the hbd interest?? xD

No, quite the opposite actually. HBD interest actually generates more demand for HBD which drives the price of HBD up. The idea is more demand for HBD -> more ability to buy HIVE with HBD -> higher HIVE prices (in theory).

Ohh. I got it backwards :D

It kinda make sense in theory, but what if people are starting tl hodl hbd? I mean, I hold way more hbd now than I did before and is only going to sell for hive when I need hive xD

Either way, if your way can work I am all down for it :D

Timcliff is awesome! Just a difference of opinions here, nothing else.

But didn't the top witness just not add interest on HBD in order to solve the peg issue??

lol. that's actually funny. I don't want to comment on this. It will get me in more trouble. :)

Hahaha okay xD
I am just a user, so I have no idea if it works haha xD
Thats just what I heard :p

You mean you don't think the super sexy solution to the peg is a new version of the potato on the top of trending each day looks amszing?

Nothing says cutting edge like a weeks worth of potato on trending. :)

2 huge proposals and now daily posts, just like at the end of Steem. I don't recall it helped much then either.

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sounds about right :(

The peg is dead. Long live the potato!

lol. We do need the peg. Just not at the expense of author rewards.

potato power

have a !BEER

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I love the enthusiasm of large stakeholder and participation in voting. I would rather see those votes go to real author posts. We need authors making hundreds of dollars if not thousands in trending. But having project funding auto posts being at the top just defeats the purpose.

It's my perception that many of those involved are not big supporters of the content rewards being on layer 1. (Hive).

Hive as Gas/gov token would work, but at the current stage, it doesn't.

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I agree it isn't time yet to remove incentives to hold Hive although I am not opposed in the future.

For now, I recommend being polite in stating your views.
You can downvote the posts.
You can unvote or not support those in charge or contributing to posts.

At the end of the day DPOS the large stakeholders decide how to steer the project and others have a choice to invest time and money on the platform or not. That's the beautiful and sometimes frustrating part of decentralization managed by Stake.

full agree.

But tell someone their own opinion about things is also necessary. Otherwise, we would never discuss things.

No issue with that!

Which is good too. I think we should remove the Hive rewards pool from rewarding content too. We can create another coin for that.

That's why I have been telling stakeholders how awesome Leofinance is. It doesn't rely on Hive reward pool. It has shown how rewards don't have to be distributed from the core blockchain coin.

In fact, Leofinance does a better job in rewarding content and curation.

I'm not opposed to moving in this direction, but for now Hive needs to keep whatever incentives there are for people to hold.

without rewards the revenue plan for Hive becomes... Resource credits, which requires traffic. :)

 8 months ago Reveal Comment

OH FFS, this shit again?

lol. I had no intention of making you mad.

I completely agree. There's no point in having those posts on trending again when there's already a funded proposal for the same purpose.

100%. Let them know how you feel about it.

I totally agree with you. You have a point to make hive not just a farming platform. We disregarded voter bot a long time ago so I hope they will not ignore this. True, it's not a bad idea but I think the quality of a post should be considered not just like that.

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Large stakeholders kinda decided on it. But if we all speak up, maybe they will change their mind. Decentralization in action.

Thanks for clarifying what is going on with the HBD stabilization attempts. I didn't know about the impacts and just agreed with it because I thought having HBD pegged was great. As such, I think there are probably more people who were like me and did not realize these facts. There is so much content in HIVE and I read the first one. Afterwards I only skimmed through the other ones without reading into much detail.

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Yes, we have DHF for funding project funding. Rewards pool is for authors and curators. It will be great to see all those stakeholders who voted for hbd.funder voting for author posts. That would make a huge difference and show the potential of Hive.

I agree with every word you said above. Leave reward pool for authors and curators.
Devise another way to put HBD on a leash.

Good day.

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For me, it is surprisingly large stakeholders vote for that. It's the most stupid that can happen.

Clear rules. We have DAO for that, stop spam trending page. This lets look hive and the entire Blockchain looks like a big joke + Shitcoin.

First impression from a new visitor:

"Wait the stable coin is not stable? Why these people are too stupid to build it? looks like dump project"

"they fund projects this way? Holy shit what a shitty Blockchain dump project, I never look at this bullshit again".

is like thejerrybanfield naked under the shower on trending.

I think hive has the best negative/self-destroying marketing - PR strategy.

Never shill the good things. Only let everybody know about things that don't work. Nice.

And an Investor never thinks after such a first impression " let invest in this". Never.

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Stakeholders in Hive vote for the post because as long as HBD is >$1 on the market, it captures that value and adds it to Hive, which increases the value of their stake. The consideration of how the trending list looks has less priority for the average stakeholder than making HIVE more valuable. Further, a functional stable coin can make Hive more valuable as a network.

Agree. But my point is trending is the first impression window to Hive.

If new users / Investors look the first they see is " stable coin that doesn't work" is not a cool impression.

IMO the more sexy way is a new proposal with 10k HDB funds a day. This would be much higher and the trending looks clean.

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Putting the image of stable coin that doesn't work out front on the trending list is a valid concern but it also shows community effort and resolve to fix problems too. A potential investor might see the strategy which puts buy pressure on the price of HIVE and see potential. Maybe one of the foolish people speculating on HBD without understanding it might visit a Hive front end and see it too :)

I replied because your comment above seemed to not understand the motive or priority of these large stakeholders voting on the post. And it's way better than Jerry Banfield half naked holding a baby :D

The output from the DHF is limited and currently the HBD stabilizer proposals are using almost all HBD that is not otherwise allocated. As you saw from smooth, he plans on making more proposals (as long as there is a need) when more HBD output is available.

Sure I understand. But the way is the problem.

If we would allow a pool that converts Hive into HBD and buy from the market every investor can buy-in would be a smarter solution, would also better scale. HBD would become super stable at this point.

Yep, that is the solution. I see you voiced your support for it on blocktrades' recent post.

the consideration of how the trending list looks has less priority for the average stakeholder.

Define average stakeholder?

Like the stakeholders that upvoted the posts. Average, weighted by stake at least.

the point is a 400$ post makes hive not " more valuable". The only real impact is the bad first impression

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It is not a bad idea. We all want HBD to be pegged. But using rewards pool for that is just not the way to go, especially after everything we have accomplished so far. It would be great to see all those voters for those posts participate in voting for real authors.

My thoughts are, leave the rewards pool alone. HDF has a lot of money to fund many various projects.


But all the fixes of the peg look amateur to me. HDB doesn't work since day one. Why we try to fix a broken system this way? It's ok for leeching some funds and burn some Hive, but does it really make sense long term?

If they really want it stable. Open the fund/transfer from DAO + stabilization for every user. Then we become funds 100x higher than the current proposal because Hive users can make a return out of it.

Would long-term stable HDB and IMO less amateur :)

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I personally think removing haircut would fix it. But I am no economist, so don't know. But @smooth and @blocktrades have great ideas I think that can actually fix it. I just don't want it to be at the cost of author rewards.

I looked at trending once in 2016... nasty, never did that again!

It is a lot better these days. I do find interesting posts on trending. I hope it remains that way.

With all these profits going to the dhf isn't it time that the devs give back the 10% we sacrificed for them?
It's not like they don't have it, now.

It depends which devs you are talking about. You are absolutely right and bring up a great point. Reward pool for authors/curators already gave up 10% or so (I thought it was even 15%) for DHF to happen.

There are some devs like Leofinance who hasn't taken a penny from DHF and keep building for Hive and its community. I can only hope stakeholders can see it and at the very least vote for leofinance witness.

We took a big hit for that dhf, between its 10% and the up to 50% tax on having less than 160,000hp, I think we need to be given something back.
They have over 30 million usd in that dhf.
I don't see 30 million usd worth of things that need changing.

Don't worry, you don't have hatred. You are just saying your opinion as per your observation and experience from the past. You are smart and have a sharp memory, unlike me. LOL

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lol. Thanks. I am sure you have a sharper memory than mine.

Surly there’s a better solution than This! If they want to use inflation why not just make the post and set rewards to decline and then have comments that are vote farmed! Could even jusy do it on one post and continue to farm the comments if this is the solution

I don’t see why the DAO isn’t used for this, plenty of proposals on there that’s not doing much anyway

DAO is already being used. It probably is not enough.

Even using comments would take away from rewards for authors. I don't thing posting should be used for funding projects at all.

I don't understand how the whole pegging HBD works. I get the idea but not the mechanics at all. This post helps a little. I definitely agree with what you are saying about the trending page though. I haven't visited the page in.... I dont even know. Again my understanding is limited but I agree that rewards should be for authors as well, rather than system projects and mechanics of the chain.

I agree. It shouldn't be based on author rewards.
@blocktrades already proposed a possible change to convert hive to HBD. I hope that would be investigated and implemented in next HF.

Until that is implemented, @smooth's mechanism is helping and also returning speculator value to the HIVE token. It's hard to complain when a higher HIVE price benefits everyone in the ecosystem.

I would prefer an additional proposal rather than using author rewards.

Nobody is arguing higher Hive price and stable HBD is not good for everyone. Just they way we are trying to get there seems not right.

I think this might be a case once again where stakeholders and and content creators are going to be at odds with one another. Usually the stakeholders win.

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 8 months ago Reveal Comment

What? :)