The Price of Anonymity on the Blockchain.

avatar

We are in a rapid technological explosion on the blockchain. People are actively seeking to solve world problems and they are also seeking to solve problems that arise in the various experiments in trying new things on the blockchain. Yet there is one big hurdle. That hurdle is anonymity. I understand why people want to be anonymous especially with the way the world operates today. If they know who you are they can cancel you, ostracize you, and in a very real sense seek to destroy you. The answer to that seems to be that people should be anonymous.

image.png

We then start talking about how we do not want centralized power because that is where the corruption and ability to censor and oppress arise from. The answer we say is to decentralize on a blockchain. This indeed may be the answer. I am increasingly thinking it likely will always be flawed if we demand we remain anonymous.

Why?

If we are anonymous then people can create any number of accounts. If consensus mechanisms are then in place someone with 5 accounts would effectively have 5 votes, while the people with 1 account would have a single vote. This consolidates power in those who create and control the most accounts. Simply tools exist and quickly deployed that enable them to mass control many accounts.

In the rush to make VALUE in supporting platforms the concept of Proof of Stake is then introduced. If we base it off of Proof of Stake then a person with 10 stake has a more powerful vote than a person with 1 stake even if they both only have a single account.

It can be quick to seem like this should be okay. If we are dealing with a market and you are not voting for rules, censorship, etc. and are simply paying for goods with your stake then this largely would not be a problem. However, if that stake is driving the rules then people are NOT EQUAL.

If people can accumulate stake, and they can create multiple accounts that are anonymous then anyone with the will and/or technological knowledge of how to create and control those accounts can rapidly accumulate power.

In a supposedly decentralized environment sold as about equality of opportunity this rapidly changes and is centralized within a centralized system.

If using the system is based also upon your stake and by using your account you gain more stake based upon the amount of stake you already have the power rapidly becomes more and more concentrated in those who began this process earliest.

It certainly cannot lead to an equal environment. It cannot lead to a truly democratic type process. It cannot lead to how it is typically marketed.


I am increasingly thinking for something like people are pushing for to work people cannot have multiple accounts. To insure this you would likely need to ditch the anonymous aspect. This is very unappealing to me as well. Yet it is the only thing I can think of at the moment to prevent gaming of the system. Virtually every solution people think of can be gamed as soon as you introduce multiple accounts.

Another thing that would need to go would be voting for democratic type decisions being tied to stake at all. It should be 1 vote for 1 person. If you wish to retain stake in terms of people being able to purchase things you might be able to find a middle ground.

I don't know the actual solution and I am not attempting to build a platform.

I have spent years observing, debating, and thinking and I do not come to these conclusions lightly.

We should be equal as people in terms of our vote.


Yet we are not equal as people

We have bodies, we have minds, we have the circumstances we are born into, we have the consequences of our choices, and we also have chance and events that occur that our not in our own hands. All of these things make true equality a delusion. Our goal should be equality of opportunity as we can strive towards that. We can never achieve equality of outcome (i.e. Equity).

That doesn't mean we need to keep developing systems that incorporate intentional mechanisms that lead to consolidation of power and exacerbating any inequalities on a large degree.

Yet we also have the problem where if a single Physicist votes on a physics related issue only to be cancelled out by a mob of people emotionally convinced the Physicist was wrong or a fool... The mob is a very real and very dangerous thing.

When we think of equality and it is pushed in voting there is the very real situation that NONE of us are equal. We all know different things. We all have different levels of education. We all may have self educated and continue to do so. We all have our own psychological problems. Some of us may be narcissists. Many of us may be egomaniacs who see ourselves as the center of the universe. Some of us will be sociopaths and others even psychopaths.

Equality of voting has a cost...

The danger is when some people are permitted to speak and others are not. The danger is when some people are amplified and others are diminished. Through this mechanism the mob can be weaponized.

People like EASY...

They want to do the least amount of effort possible. This typically includes thinking.

At least with how they are being educated these days.


Do I think there is a solution?

Yes. Though I think it would require time and a change to education for it to be accomplished. Right now our education system is too focused on not being wrong, obeying authoritarian instructions, and not daring to ask questions that challenge what certain sources say.

That is very dangerous as it creates a ready made mob that can be targeted simply by making certain you are perceived as the authoritarian that must be obeyed.

When I say this would take time. It would take a lot of time.

Do I think there would be resistance to doing what needs to be done? Definitely. Sociopaths are not going to give up their power willingly. They will easily convince others to support them with promise of giving them power and wealth in exchange for their support.


This is not a capitalist, communist, Marxist, socialist thing. These issues exist outside of those frameworks.



0
0
0.000
21 comments
avatar
(Edited)

#matrix8fixesthis with invitation only, Trusted Reputation, and anonymity in the consensus mechanism (in groups of 8), and voting power can be based on party the Trusted Reputation score (which would be partly influenced by stake) as well as one person one vote (alt accounts would soon become exposed by Trusted Rep score.

Trusted Reputation
https://peakd.com/hive-153630/@atma.love/trusted-reputation?ref=atma.love

Anonymity
https://peakd.com/hive-153630/@atma.love/anonimity-in-matrix-8?ref=atma.love

Sat Nam
Atma

Call to Action to help us Re-Member

Please Join The Matrix-8 Solution General Discussion + Q & A's Unencrypted Room on Element: https://matrix.to/#/#The-Matrix-8-Solution:matrix.org

or

The Matrix-8 Solution General Discussion + Q & A's Unencrypted Room on Telegram: https://t.me/+U6NwI1Zw3Z_F-Jja

The above two links are to the same group/room but it's best to join with Element so you will also have access to the encrypted Cause Group rooms. You can join with Telegram using this link if you prefer not to install Element secure messenger for now.

For more information, The Matrix-8 Solution White Paper (Abstract & Part 1) is available here

!PGM !PIZZA !LUV

@zhishuijing, note my reply here.

#matrix8 #PGM #OneUp #m8s #matrix8fixesthis #vyb

0
0
0.000
avatar

Sent 0.1 PGM tokens to @atma.love, @dwinblood

remaining commands 9

Buy and stake 10 PGM token to send 0.1 PGM per day,
100 PGM token to send 0.1 PGM three times per day
500 to send and receive 0.1 PGM five times per day
1000 to send and receive 0.1 PGM ten times per day

image.png
Discord image.png

Support the curation account with a delegation 10 HP - 50 HP - 100 HP - 500 HP - 1000 HP

0
0
0.000
avatar

I read the two links above.

If it is by invitation but we are anonymous how do you know that a person has only been invited once and not cat phished or otherwise used other web tricks to get invited multiple times?

0
0
0.000
avatar

Well, bearing in mind that if you invite someone who subsequently turns out to already have an account, or goes on to create alt accounts or other nefarious actions, then your own (as well as their) Trusted Reputation score, will be adversely affected. Your trusted reputation score (like your reputation in the physical world) is something of value, so you will choose carefully who you invite

#m8sKLU

0
0
0.000
avatar

So you don't know, but a real person can physically only join a live meeting of all members with one account at a time (or maybe manage to use two). There are other factors too.

#m8sKLU

0
0
0.000
avatar

So this will require joining LIVE meetings? That could be the key.

Yet what if I was invited as a real person and I meet with my matrix8 group live, and yet I had other email accounts, and other accounts outside of matrix8 and a different matrix8 group invites that "person" to their group and I attend those live meetings as well?

Wouldn't I effectively then have two matrix8 accounts since I am anonymous and EACH of those accounts would have different Trusted Reputations. Unless you somehow become aware they are the same person how would you know to ding their reputation?

How do you insure a person only has one account when they are anonymous? Live meetings are no guarantee of stopping that at all.

0
0
0.000
avatar

@dwinblood, humanity is lucky you are a good guy.
If you were wicked, I would truly fear for the future.

Instead, there is hope.

Anyways, you're right; that would let you game the system. I would love to imagine that there will someday be a computer-mind that is intelligent enough to simulate entire humans brains, and thus think exactly like a person, but faster, better, and without memory flaws or unwanted quirks.

In other words, if there was a machine that was able to simulate 128 humans at the same time, and each of those accounts verified each other, and added to each other's reputation scores, and each had a different IP, and had the power to easily conduct live meetings, then yes, this system would fail.

But that's sci-fi thank goodness.

A pity it is very likely possible to be a CEO of a corporation that exists to create multiple accounts on blockchains in order to perform takeovers. With millions of dollars in funding, it would be easily possible to create too many accounts for them all to be targeted, and then hire hundreds of employees to man each account and vote according to the wishes of the corporation.

Each account would then have a live, active voter and account user, and any amount of stake required to boost its power to the perfect level.

This sort of system could also be done by a government who deliberately wishes to destroy blockchains as well, and it'd be even more simple then.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Exactly. This is why I am starting to think that as uncomfortable as it may be a true system of the future might be ONE account and not anonymous.

I don't think this would be a GOOD thing now. Getting from HERE to THERE without atrocities occurring due to loss of anonymity is the challenge.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Yeah, being anonymous is the only way to truly speak your mind. You use your real name here, so you already have things you think but don't choose to say, right?

But if you were truly anonymous, if everyone was, and there was -absolutely- no way to -ever- track down who a person was, I bet everyone would say a lot more.

I think speech is more important than economics, in the long term, but in the short term for people, they'd often rather shut up and get paid, rather than risk their jobs.

You're probably right though. I can't think of any way to make this work for both uses. The closest I got was a separation of speech-account and voting-account, where your speech-account is anonymous, but your voting-account is not.

Yet, to link them causes an identity-leak issue, and not linking them leaves a lot of problems that seem too numerous to list.

0
0
0.000
avatar

You use your real name here, so you already have things you think but don't choose to say, right?

Not really. I figure I burned that bridge a long time ago. There are things I don't say anywhere online ANONYMOUS or OTHERWISE in the current environment.

Actions that I think likely should be taken to make the world better that would likely quickly get me imprisoned or disappeared. I don't feel safe speaking such ideas whether I am anonymous or not.

As is short of things I won't even say anonymously I tend to speak my mind.

This may not be wise.

0
0
0.000
avatar

I own my mistakes. I expect to make them. So short of being taken away and disappeared by authoritarians I don't really feel a need to hide my thoughts.

Since I am not afraid of being wrong I don't have a lot of concern about speaking what is in my mind.

0
0
0.000
avatar

I guess being raised by Hippies and "Peace, Love, and Flower Power" rubbed off on my enough that I haven't tried to take advantage of people and become wealthy and powerful...

:P

0
0
0.000
avatar

As a programmer to me this matrix8 thing is essentially what is known as an octtree. It can be a solution yet I can think of other potential issues. I'll wait and see where the discussion goes. If I have issues I will only be introducing with true HOPE that you guys have thought of it and have a solution. If I introduce something you haven't thought of it will be my HOPE that you can then think of a solution. I don't want you to fail. We need something like this to be successful but we must be brutally honest and attempt to think how we can game anything we come up with because if there are loopholes you didn't plan for they will be exploited. It always happens.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Totally agree. Your input is valued. If I have not answered any of your Q's sufficiently please probe further, and if I cannot answer I will ask John Huckel who designed the system. Re how it will be coded, @snider is the man for that, but very busy man. Everything he writes is FOSS BTW.

0
0
0.000
avatar

I personally am starting to think that ultimately anonymity should not be required. I understand why it is required today due to the nature of the world yet if we FIX these issues of the world then being anonymous I think should be less of an issue.

Getting from point A to point B though is the challenge.

0
0
0.000
avatar

I can think of another potential issue if it is indeed what I think it is (an octree). It is not a problem with anonymity and you guys may have already come up with a solution to this. I don't have the time at the moment to read all of your threads to see if you have.

Do you want me to write a quick post about it?

It is an easier thing likely to solve than the anonymity issue.

0
0
0.000
avatar

Yes please.

And I'll get back to other unanswered comment (perhaps in an online call if you are willing, with John Huckel @matrix-8 and hopefully @snider too). I'm thinking that 1600 hrs UTC could be a good time for most who might join a non-anonymous non-encrypted call for q & a's in the Element/Telegram bridged room.

0
0
0.000
avatar

One person, one vote: This makes it necessary to do KYC for all accounts. Vote according to stake: The wealthy control everything.

0
0
0.000