499 First Responders Witness Testimonies on 9/11
Last year on October 9, 2023 I had combined all 500 PDFs (499 witnesses in total) of the New York Times database of 9/11 firefighters, paramedics, and emergency medical technicians (EMTs) into a single searchable 7,058 page PDF report. https://t.me/meslinks/20245
Here I take it 1 step further and demonstrate the unique and amazing capability of the Hive blockchain for storing vast amounts of text for dirt cheap. I will be including all 7,058 pages into this one article on Hive so that it is more convenient. This will also serve to make Hive the only platform in the world with the complete 499 witness testimonies in article format!
Note also that I used Grok AI on X to format the PDF text into proper markdown to paste into Hive.
I have also labeled the redacted portions as: REDACTED
File No. 9110001: DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FITZPATRICK
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 1, 2001
Transcribed by: Elisabeth F. Nason
T. FITZPATRICK
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY:
We can begin by stating your name and your rank.
MR. FITZPATRICK:
Tom Fitzpatrick, Deputy Commissioner for Administration, assigned to the Commissioner's office.
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY:
Just for the record, it's Monday, October 1, 2:40 p.m., conference room 8N6 at headquarters.
MR. FITZPATRICK:
On the morning of the event I was in my office and I was alerted by Commissioner Feehan and one of the secretaries outside that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. I looked out the window, saw a slice in the side of the north tower, and then Bill came down the hall and said let's go. So we responded from headquarters. I had previously had a meeting with Tom McDonald, so he came with us, along with Ray Goldbach. I think that was it in the car. En route to the alarm, we could see the smoke from the north tower. I tried to get an idea of how many floors and it looked like the upper third of the building was involved. We got across the Brooklyn Bridge, went down Broadway and stopped the car, I think it was at Broadway and Dey. We got out of the car and ran down the street. As we got to the intersection of Broadway and Dey or just a little bit down Dey, the second plane hit the south tower. And we continued down the street. By the time we got to the plaza, a lot of debris was coming down.
Q:
Did you witness the second plane hitting?
A:
I heard it but I didn't look up. The noise from the plane was enough to make you not want to look up. I thought the plane was actually going to land in the street to be honest with you. The noise was outrageous. When it hit the building it was even worse. I figured, as long as we didn't get hit by the plane, we were ahead of the game. The next thing I was worried about was getting hit by the parts. Various pieces of the plane were falling on the street. As we went down the street you could see parts of aircraft with stencil numbers on it and things like that. There was a wheel, or like a wheel housing or something else there in the street. There were a lot of bodies coming down but I didn't pay much attention to it. For some reason I was more focused on the airplane parts until somebody started pointing out the body parts. I was particularly concerned at that point with getting hit by something falling out of the building, so we ran under the canopy of 5 World Trade Center, to make our way towards the building, the north tower. We were under the canopy as far as we could go and cut through. There is a space between 5 and 6. When we got under the end of 5 we would have had to run across the plaza. We didn't believe that was a good idea, so we went through the space between 5 and 6 and went up an escalator on the side of 6. It was on the street side, on the Vesey Street side. There was a Port Authority cop telling us not to come up and we went up anyway. He directed us to an escalator which went down to the plaza to the concourse level so we could make our way to the command post at the northwest corner of the north tower.
When we got there, I saw --
Q:
So that was West Street near the pedestrian bridge?
A:
Yes, yes. I got there and saw Richie Sehrer had just come into the lobby, Chief Hayden, Chief Callan, a whole host of security people and people from the Port Authority. Bill Feehan and myself and then Tom Von Essen. That's all I can recall right now. There are a lot of other people, but they were the only ones I focused on.
Q:
Did you mention Chief Ganci?
A:
I didn't see Chief Ganci in the lobby at that time.
Q:
Can you tell us Commissioner, what the demeanor of the citizens or lay people were there in the lobby, or in the concourse?
A:
With respect to the security guards, they seemed to be fairly composed. They were going about their business, making a lot of phone calls. The only civilians we saw were coming out as we went through the lobby of 5. The Port Authority police were directing groups of people out of the towers, out on to the street. Seemed like they were mostly going - they may have been going across the walkway at that time. I didn't really see where they were going, but they were directing them out of the building, quite a few people.
We were in the lobby, it could have been 15 minutes. We were getting reports. People were calling the security desk with reports of people trapped upstairs. We were trying to get an idea of what was going on with our own people upstairs. We -- somebody told us in the lobby that they had information that the Pentagon had just been hit, so in addition to the second plane, the idea of terrorism was confirmed by the Pentagon. We were looking to, because the command post was so crowded, we were looking for a place to set up a second command post, essentially for communications because we couldn't get any out from behind the desk. It's a big marble desk. It looks like the security station there is a marble counter with a wall in front of it and you had to go around it every time to get to a phone, so we figured it wasn't going to work out in the long run.
Q:
The command center was actually inside number 6?
A:
No, inside of the north tower.
Q:
It wasn't in number 5, it was in the north tower?
A:
Yes, we used 5 for cover and we ran through 6 to get into the north tower.
Q:
So the north tower is the command post?
A:
Yes, that's at the level of West Street, but you've got to go down one level. We were there about 15 minutes looking for the secondary command post. We started briefly talking about who was going where. We were trying to figure out, if somebody was going to go to OEM or somebody was going to stay on the scene. I think the Commissioner had been told that the Mayor wanted to meet him. I'm not sure where the Mayor was but the Mayor wanted to meet the Commissioner and some of his staff just north of the tower.
I looked in the concourse level where the shops are. It was too congested, too deep in the building for the units coming out in the street to see anybody. So we went back out to the lobby and dropped back to a position right outside that had 6 escalators going up to the walkway. I thought there might be an opportunity to have people staged there before they came into the main lobby.
Q:
Those are the escalators that lead to the pedestrian bridge that takes you from one World Trade Center to the Financial Center?
A:
Yes, it is. I looked around. There was no communication. We didn't think that was a good spot. The longer we stayed in the lobby we realized that with the second building and with the command post getting as crowded as it was, we were not going to be able to manage anything from that point, so we decided to move, Bill Feehan, myself, and I believe Commissioner Tierney at that point. I met her in the walkway or I might have met her before, but she was there anyway. I decided to look for a second place to go. I believe the Commissioner left to go north and Bill Feehan and myself, went up to the walkway to go across West Street.
Q:
You mean the bridge there?
A:
Yes, we went across the north bridge into the Winter Garden. When we got into the Winter Garden, just as soon as we stepped through the door I looked and said to myself this is a perfect command post, because they looked like they were having some type of an event. There were tables set up and there was a big - around the tables were two rows of tables across the front of the Hudson River side of the Winter Garden. That would be perfect because if you had a phone at each position, you have an emergency command post, an OEM type set up going right away.
There were two security guards, one of which I met later on, but there were two security guards who asked us if we needed anything. We told them we needed communications set up in that lobby. Because we figured that would be the command post. We could come out and do staging at West Street. He told us he would try to get it set up there. It was not a standard part of the lobby set up, but he would try to get us some communications. It appeared at that time that the whole building had been evacuated. It was empty except for security.
While he was doing that, we made our way back out to West Street into the driveway of 2 World Financial Center. There were two garage doors behind us. When we got out there we noticed that the apparatus were coming in and starting to fill up West Street. Ambulances were responding, and it seemed like they were coming from two different directions on West Street. So we didn't think that would be a good idea for the long term if we were going to have an event this big. We had to stage the ambulances down from Canal Street south, so that we could bring the ambulances down, pick up patients and either go through the battery into Brooklyn or Queens or back up the west side into Manhattan or wherever else we were attempting.
It was evident that we weren't going to be able to get to people above the fire. Based on the number of jumpers, we could only assume that hundreds of people were trapped.
We were there for, seems to me 10 minutes maybe. Time was all out of whack for me. I don't know. We were all -with all the running around and the time we spent in each place, it's kind of compressed.
Q:
Are we still in the time period from when you saw the second plane hit from east of the World Trade Center?
A:
Yes.
Q:
You made your way over here. You told us your story about where you went to the Winter Garden back out on the street?
A:
Right.
Q:
Both of the World Trade Centers are still standing at this point?
A:
Both still standing, both heavily involved, but both still standing.
Q:
You then followed the driveway into Two Financial Center?
A:
Yes, Tom McDonald was there and they asked him to go north and start to control the ambulances and the trucks that seemed to be stopping right at that point. What we wanted to do is get them to the side of the road to keep the street open. One of the things in the driveway -- while we were talking, we noticed there was groups of people with stretchers and EMS equipment running south on the sidewalk. At the same time there was a group of people with EMS equipment running north. And I thought it was at that point that we needed to coordinate which direction they were going in. If we were going to have a triage area in one set, which we presumed would be south and the ambulances were moving north, that the triage area should all be south.
Chief Gombo was in the driveway at that point. I asked him to take some people and set up a triage area wherever they thought it would be best to set up. I believe they left the driveway and went south towards Albany.
Right after that there was a camera crew there from somewhere. I remember Frank Gribbon saying to me is there any chance this building would fall down. I don't think I gave him a real good answer, but he did tell the camera crew to step back because we were concerned about falling glass. We assumed from the last explosion that there were big big chunks of glass coming down from somewhere. So he told them to get back against the building.
At some point I believe Bill asked me to call somebody. But I can't for the life of me remember who or what. I was looking for a phone and the security guard who was in the driveway, there is a little stone wall with a railing or something on top of it, that you could climb up on it right at the end of the driveway, so Bill said to make a call. I jumped up on the wall and ran in right off the street. There was an office there, a security office, and the guy directed me to an office that was 5 feet away to use the phone. I made a phone call and came back out in the driveway.
Q:
Is the driveway now on the west side of West Street, so it leads to the World Financial Center or does it lead to the World Trade Center?
A:
No, the driveway goes right into 2 World Financial Center on the west side. There were two double doors there.
Q:
Just to clarify, Commissioner, this is where the command post was set up?
A:
Yes, yes, they were setting up the magnetic board and stuff. Came back out. Met Bill and I - forget who else was in the driveway at that point. Came back out and stood somewhere near Bill in the driveway. We were right at the raised driveway, which went down to the street, came up and went down to the garage. It was sort of raised in the center. We basically stood on the raised portion. I started to look up the building.
Q:
Was Chief Ganci present in that area at that time?
A:
I didn't see him. I don't remember seeing him. I came back out. I remember seeing Bill, but I don't remember. I don't remember clearly who else was there, but I know there were about - I would guess between 40 and 50 people in the driveway.
Q:
All Fire Department personnel?
A:
No, I think aside from Fire Department personnel, there were some other civilian people. I seem to remember somebody in a T-shirt. The only reason I remember that is because -- I think I remember that because I ran into him later on at the back of the garage. We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV. I would have to say for three or four seconds anyway, maybe longer. I was just watching. It was interesting to watch, but the thing that woke everybody up was the cloud of black material. It reminded me of the 10 commandments when the green clouds come down on the street. The black cloud was coming down faster than the building, so whatever was coming down was going to hit the street and it was pretty far out. You knew it wasn't coming right down. Judging from where people were jumping before that, this cloud was out much further.
Somebody yelled we've got to take cover or get out of the way or something like that and the only place to go, because we were in that driveway area, was into the garage. I didn't, at that point, expect the building to come down, I guess, but I knew you wanted to be out of the way of this black cloud. I ran into the garage and I would say ten or 15 feet into the garage, the building hit the street. It wasn't very loud but it was big. A big noise, it wasn't like a crash, like a car accident, more like a big thud. And a blast of air and debris came through the garage. I think the thing that is unusual about going in was when I ran in the garage there was a railing, where the driveway of the northern most part of the garage went in and split. It split with a yellow railing and as I was going in, two people fell back. I fell over them. To keep my balance, I reached out and put my hand on the railing. The people there were scrambling to get up.
When I got up, I just kept running straight ahead but I realized that I was on the other side of the railing. Not the driveway side, but what looked like a walkway. In this garage, that would be where you pay your ticket to get your car out. So I kept going straight with the railing. Some people ran down the driveway. I don't know to this point, still don't know if the driveway's southern most point was parallel to this or if it went down another level. I really don't.
Anyway, I ran into four or five people straight ahead with the railing on the left. Eventually, I ran into a corridor, a long corridor with a door at the end of a long corridor to get out of the debris that was coming through the door. We just kept going down the corridor, assuming it was going to come out through the side or the lobby or a hallway. Unfortunately it turned into a dead end, like a locker room, like an electrical closet or where they put lockers in. There were really no doors to the place. We just kept going to the end and at the opening where you assume it's going to open up into another lobby, it opened up into a room about this size. It had lockers in it. That was it.
So by this time we couldn't see anything, the noise was over. It was very quiet, but this plaster was in the air so you couldn't breathe normally without inhaling a mouthful of something.
Q:
Were there lights or any lighting?
A:
There were lights, but the stuff was dark. With all the stuff floating around, it was almost darkness, like a white out or a gray out. It seemed like the guy in the T-shirt was the guy - I thought he was a construction worker. He may have been a maintenance guy. But we got down to the end and he was saying is there a way out? Is there a way out? I couldn't find any. All I could see were lockers, after getting close to them, and conduits on the wall. There was no way out of that room, so we started to go back to where we came out and I think we ended up past the way we came in.
Q:
How many people were with you, Commissioner?
A:
I think there were about 5 or 6.
Q:
Anybody that you know personally?
A:
No.
Q:
Did you have a Fire Department radio with you at that time?
A:
I had no radio, no. I just had my turnout coat. Unfortunately, my helmet was in the car. Richie said he was going to go to - I think the Commissioner wanted Bill Feehan to go across the street to OEM and he said to tell Bill to give me his helmet, because I didn't have one. So we came back out of the hallway and somebody said there is a door. There is a door. Let's go out this way. I couldn't see it. So whoever said it stayed at the door, see, and kept yelling this way, this way, this way. You couldn't orient yourself. With the dust you didn't know which direction it was.
Q:
Did you pass any people on the way back out?
A:
I don't think I passed anybody who was walking around, because we were all together. I think there was only one guy I worked with next to me. But there were people behind him, so when we turned around to go back out, they were in front of us. I saw there was a door, I remember going and feeling my way around. There were a couple of door knobs. One of them said it was a locksmith shop. I saw an electrical closet and something else. It was a typical maintenance door. But I remember the locksmith one. It was stupid, I know. I assumed that the building had fallen on the other building. I couldn't get out of the garage. I keep remembering thinking that the locksmith would always have the keys to the doors and they were probably in the locksmith's closet. But who knows if he ever got out.
We came out and went into this door. I think we went up one landing into a store which seemed like a bagel shop or something. I seem to remember cameras or something, on the right side. That led around through the store into the lobby of the Winter Garden.
Q:
How was the visibility at that time?
A:
It was all -- it was still - the cement - you know the cement they put in, as you got further in towards the Winter Garden it cleared up. By the time you actually get into the lobby of the Financial Center, it was a little bit of stuff, but not nearly as bad as what it was before. I went to the lobby. We went across.
Q:
Was there anybody in the lobby that you recognized?
A:
I don't remember.
Q:
Were there people in the Winter Garden?
A:
No. I don't remember seeing anyone over there. There may have been people there, I just may not have been paying attention to that.
Q:
Did you hear a lot of people yelling or screaming?
A:
There was some people yelling, but I don't know exactly where they were. I didn't look to see. I didn't look back to see what had happened. But I knew that down to the right was the entrance - was Vesey Street. So we went down that way. Passed a - it was like a restaurant in the courtyard there. I think there is one on either side. I went down and I saw out on Vesey Street, I saw Tom McDonald, who we had just sent to move the rigs. So as soon as I saw him I knew he was alive. I went down there and I think he was looking for Tom Curti, might have been with Tom McDonald going down the street.
At that time I saw Tom McDonald, who looked more like a snowman than me, but it seemed like he had a real mouthful of stuff. So I went back in and grabbed a couple of bottles of water from the diner that we had just passed or the restaurant or something. I grabbed a couple of bottles of water and gave them to him. I then proceeded down Vesey Street to West Street, figuring that now I could come around to the right and back towards tower one and towards the driveway.
Q:
Heading east on Vesey Street?
A:
Yes, but you couldn't go that way. Between the dust and everything else you couldn't see much, but I think the walkway was still up. I also knew that the second tower was up. But Tom McDonald said what had actually happened. So I went out and looked and I could see the north tower, but I couldn't see the south tower, but sometime when you are down there if you are in the right position, it only looks like one building to begin with. So I walked a little bit down further and saw that all you could see was the radio tower sticking up through the smoke. But you couldn't really see anything else. But based on where the sun was shining through, where there was a shadow before, I said to Tom, the whole building is gone. I came back to him and thought more about the guys who went in the garage but they didn't come up the way I came up. I assumed that the garage at 2 World Financial went down and came back out and there had to be a driveway. I knew there was a driveway in the back of the building, so I went around the back of the building.
Q:
Back by Vesey towards the water?
A:
Yes. (inaudible). Back around behind 4 World Financial Center. I had actually come out of 3. I went back around behind 3 looking for the garage exit that should be coming out of 2.
Q:
You went between 3 and 4 and you walked behind 3?
A:
Yes, south and west.
Q:
Behind the Winter Garden?
A:
Behind the Winter Garden.
Q:
So you were back near the boat pier?
A:
Yes. As I got back here, I met the same security guard that was in the lobby. He had a ponytail. He told me he was retired secret service. Something official. I think he mentioned retired secret service. I thought that was pretty reliable. So I asked him if there was an entrance to the garage from this side, if the garage went through. He said he didn't know. He wasn't sure. There was somebody else that said it doesn't go through, it's a separate - because there's a wall between garages. So I started to go south behind Merrill Lynch near the park. So we came around and come around to that little bridge area where they took the families down. As I got around there, it just started to come down towards the building and all of a sudden a whole bunch of people started running. The second one --
Q:
Towards you?
A:
Yes, now they are all running towards me. I said the second one is coming down. This is getting to be a little bit too much. So we started to run straight out towards the water. Right near Liberty Street and then real close to 2 Financial Center. Ran out to the water where the marina is, and then ran north on the World Financial plaza till we came to the water. By then the second building went down. The cloud from that debris had already blown out through the street, but the people who were in that area were sort of protected because they didn't get the direct brunt of the second cloud because the building took the brunt of the hit. The cloud seemed to be, the Financial Center seemed to, you know, clear a path. The cloud went on both ends but didn't come straight at you, so you were a little bit better off there.
I went out to the water and tried to figure out what was going on. There were people out there in boats, starting to pull up to the pier.
Q:
You noticed a lot of people out on the pier?
A:
Yes, there were a lot of people out against the fence. I think some people had gone out there and stopped to watch what was going on after the first building came down, because it looked like if they had gotten that far and the buildings came down they should have kept running. It seems like they may have run out there with the first building and decided to stop and watch the second building. And then the second building came down, and they had no place to go except into the water, over the railing. As you got further north, you could see that they were getting hit by the cloud. Some people were trying to get into boats.
Q:
Was there anybody in the water that you noticed?
A:
I didn't see anybody in the water. I saw some people going on the boats. Some of the boats were having difficulty with gates that dropped down to let people on, but they couldn't get them down because of the railings. So we tried to figure out a way to get people up over the railings on to the boats. Some firemen were helping some civilians. Then I met a Chief out there, Raynis, I think his name was, who started to take a head count. I told him to get -- there was another Chief further down. It looked like he was doing the same thing. I told him to get together, to get everybody and send somebody down and get all the firemen on the pier, to try to get them together in one group. At least get a preliminary head count and we were going to take them out to meet -- the only thing I could see was the big arch in front of BMCC.
Q:
That's up by like North Moore? Chambers and West?
A:
Yeah, I told them take all the guys you can get and meet in front of the arch, and when we got there, we would figure out what to do next. By then -- the school, the high school started to let kids out, Stuyvesant High School. There was a lot of kids. The firemen were stretched along the pier there. So we went down this way and it looked like the kids were starting to come out of school, I'm thinking in my mind. So we made our way across towards BMCC to regroup. We came back down West Street, and I don't know what the time frame is, but I ended up running into a Battalion Chief and I asked him if he had anybody with him. It seemed like he had a group of a lot of different people. So I asked him if he had anybody with him. He didn't. I had gone, come down West Street and tried to get down as far as I could in front of 3. After the smoke cleared you could see that 3 was clear, but the bridge had come down and I thought maybe the guys were in the driveway of 1 North. I was hoping they were on this side of the bridge. I looked as much as I could in front of 3 World Financial Center. It was just six inches of debris. If there was someone laying there, it would be hard to distinguish them from the mounds of paper. I didn't see anybody, so I got Shaun Reen. I said get some guys. Get some companies. I think Bill Feehan is right here. I assumed that they were between the north bridge, laying in the street, and Vesey Street. You could see right away that if they were on the other side of that, forget about trying to climb over it or get through or past it. About the only way to do a rescue was from around the other side, the south side, which I hadn't seen. So he came down and told me he had about a dozen guys. Searched everywhere and couldn't find anybody. And then we started to - then people started to drift in.
Q:
So just prior to the first collapse, you were at the driveway of Two Financial?
A:
Right.
Q:
Was Commissioner Feehan with you at that time?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Then he was out there also, but you weren't sure if Chief Ganci was there?
A:
I didn't remember seeing Pete, but again that was after I had just come out of the building, making a phone call. When I came out, if you jumped off that wall there. I walked past - you might not have noticed anybody who was closer to that wall. If they were closer to the wall or if there were more people in front of him when I jumped off, I didn't see him. It's hard to tell. The only thing I could figure is that when we ran backwards, either they ran into the other driveway, which was separate, and made their way out, somehow got out. The debris had fallen and they couldn't get across the first one or if it was on a different level, they would have been at the second entrance. They must have came up next to that little wall to get out.
Because later on when I got back there, it looked like the little wall had been shielded from the direct hit of debris, because the building deflected it. I assumed they came back up next to that wall and made their way out to the street where the magnetic board was previously and must have got hit by the second building. But I never saw either of them after that.
Q:
Did you ever see Tom McDonald?
A:
Tom McDonald, when I came back the second time I found Tom McDonald on West Street. Because he was limping. He was sitting on a car. He was worse than he was the first time. He was sitting on a car or bumper or something like that. He had torn a muscle in his leg. He was having trouble walking. I think then he told me he found Tom Curti. So that was one less guy to look for. That's about it. The rest of it is a blur.
Q:
When you went out between the first and second collapse and as you made your way back to West Street, that north bridge was down?
A:
Right, I don't know if --
Q:
It was down after the first collapse?
A:
Was it? I didn't know. I really couldn't see. You could see the debris, but with the cloud, you couldn't, from where I was -- I was standing at the corner of 3 World Financial and looking up Vesey and West. All you could see was the top and the street. You couldn't see anything. It was like a snow storm. But you could see through the sun, every once in a while, you could see the north tower and the antenna sticking up. The reason I knew the second building was gone because the smoke drifted for a second, and the sunlight came through and I knew it wasn't an optical illusion, it was just gone. So that's all I know about the second one.
I don't know if the bridge was down or partially down. It could have been in the street. I didn't spend a long time looking.
Q:
Commissioner, when you came back out after the first collapse, from the rear or the inside of Two World Financial, did you ever see Dr. Kelly down near that bridge area?
A:
No, not by the north bridge. I didn't see her. I met David Prezant. He was in the driveway. The first one. As a matter of fact he was there when we came out. We were on the driveway the first time. Either before or after I came out he was there. Because I think he went with Gombo or someone from EMS. They went together to build a triage area. But no, I didn't see Dr. Kelly. For some reason, it's real blurry. I can't remember why I went to make that phone call. I went to find out something. I ran in that building and made a phone call. I can't remember what it was. That's all.
Q:
(inaudible)?
A:
I called Sandy from the lobby when I went back in to get the water, because my sister lives in Battery Park City. Tom McDonald was sitting outside, I was going to get him some water. I went back in to steal the water. There was a phone right next to the counter, so I called Sandy. I told her to call my wife and find out where my sister was, because I didn't know if the building had fallen on her building. I couldn't tell. Find out how my sister was - call my wife, find out how my sister was and call my father, because he's in Florida. Just let them know that I'm still alive. And then I went on with the day.
Q:
You mentioned earlier that you had a conversation with Commissioner Von Essen about a helmet.
A:
Yeah.
Q:
Did Commissioner Feehan give you his helmet?
A:
No, no. He kept it. We never had a chance to make that. That would have been a difficult swap. I don't think he would have given it up so quick. I don't think he would have been so willing to go to OEM either. I'm glad he did, but that was the plan - it was going to be that. Once you started talking to Richie Schirer about recall, which we knew was going to be a mess, somewhere in the conversation Richie says to me "We'll do recall". I said to him "Make it quick, Yankee Stadium or Shea Stadium." Commissioner Von Essen said "I want you to go with the boss and I want Bill to go to OEM." He was going with the Mayor. But obviously that didn't work out. That was the last conversation between the three of us that day. Then Richie was at staging. I think he was on the phone, actually calling OEM, trying to get Shea Stadium or Yankee Stadium opened up. That's the last time I saw him. I guess he went off towards where the Mayor was going or back to his office.
Some people, I think when we went up across the walkway, I think some people were contemplating running out through the glass windows on West Street. But they were having second thoughts because of the jumpers. If you got hit by a jumper, you'd be out of business. So we went up through the walkway to get out, but I don't know who might have gone out through the windows.
Q:
Do you recall ever seeing Father Judge down there?
A:
I didn't see him.
Q:
When you were at the command post on West Street, across from the south tower, was it?
A:
The north tower.
Q:
North tower, could you see firefighters on either side of that tower?
A:
I didn't notice. I know there were rigs. I could not actually see any people, but I could see the rigs there. When we were in the north tower, just before we left, there was a report of a third plane coming in from the Port Authority. I don't know if anybody knew whether to take that seriously or if it was true or not. But I heard Chief Callan telling guys to come down, to get out of the building.
Q:
You heard him, or it on the radio?
A:
No, I heard him say it. I was standing right there next to him. He told people to come down, to get out of the building. He wanted all personnel out of the building. I don't know if he was communicating that to the second tower or to both or to the people in the building, but I did hear him say that.
Q:
This is when the command post was still in the north tower?
A:
Still in the north tower. A lot of the marble in the lobby was falling off the walls, big slabs of marble were falling down. From the impact, I guess. The lobby didn't look too good. The integrity of the elevators - I started to think about the elevators. They had either blown out, cut off or could possibly have the cars coming down. The lobby was becoming an untenable place, especially if we wanted to continue operations.
Q:
Elevators (inaudible)?
A:
I didn't see anybody coming down the stairs in the lobby. I don't think there is an exit in the lobby.
Q:
So you saw no civilian personnel coming out from the lobby?
A:
No, when went I down and when I went back. We were in the lobby by the command station. You go east in the lobby. There are a couple of doors there that lead to the concourse. Three little doors. Those doors lead into the concourse where there are shops and stores. But as soon as I went through those doors, I figured that would be a crazy place to set up a command post, because who would find you. Where's the phones. There's nothing useful in there, so I came back out.
Q:
So the first command post in the north tower was in the area of where the airline ticket booths are?
A:
The first was at the street level in the northwest corner of the building.
Q:
So it wasn't where the ticket booths are?
A:
Right, there was nothing in the lobby that was commercial and the command post was a big marble desk which had a console behind it, but you couldn't see over it. About a five foot wall and there was all Port Authority cops and security people behind it. I went back there because somebody had given me a report. One of the cops behind there said we have people trapped on the 22nd floor. Some company was calling down to the lobby. They were trapped. Debris had come down in front of their door and they were looking for companies or firemen to remove the debris so they could get out. I gave that to Chief Hayden. I said I don't know what we can do at this point, but just put it on the list. A list of places that we had to search or get to, because everybody was calling us up. And the 22nd, I thought at that point seemed like a relatively safe place to be. The 22nd would probably be the best.
Last thing we saw, as opposed to (inaudible).
Q:
I just have one last question.
A:
(Not recorded).
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY:
If no one has any further questions, Commissioner, I thank you and we will end this interview at this time.
File No. 9110002: CHIEF FIRE MARSHAL LOUIS GARCIA
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 2, 2001
Transcribed by Nancy Francis
MR. McALLISTER:
This is Kevin McAllister from Administration. It is October 2nd at 11:06 a.m. We're with Chief Garcia in his office. I am joined by --
FIRE MARSHAL CAMPBELL:
Fire Marshal Campbell.
MR. GILBERT:
Steve Gilbert.
FIRE MARSHAL STARACE:
Fire Marshal Starace.
CHIEF GARCIA:
And Louis Garcia, Chief Fire Marshal.
MR. McALLISTER:
We're going to direct Chief Garcia's attention to the morning of September the 11th, 2001, and we're going to ask Chief Garcia to tell us about the events of that morning from his perspective.
CHIEF GARCIA:
Okay. That morning I was due to play in the charity golf tournament at Douglaston Golf Course. I probably got there somewhere about 7:30. I got to the golf course. I was in a foursome with Supervising Fire Marshal James Kelty, Captain Gene Kelty, who was the captain of 10 Engine located near the World Trade Center, and also Captain James Johnson, who works over in the Training Academy.
From the first tee of Douglaston Golf Course, ironically, you have a view of the World Trade Center. In fact, those are the two buildings you can see from Douglaston Golf Course. Douglaston Golf Course is in Douglaston, Queens. It's approximately between 15 and 20 miles from Manhattan. From the first tee you see the World Trade Center.
We teed off. I was on the second hole when I was notified through my alphanumeric beeper that a plane had gone into the World Trade Center. I got on my cell phone, called EOC and said, in my exact words, "is this a fucking joke?" And they said no, it's a confirmed hit of a plane; it's confirmed the plane has hit the World Trade Center.
At that point I turned around, James Kelty was in my cart with me, we turned around, went up to the first tee. I was going to go back. When we got to the first tee, a police lieutenant -- and I don't know his last name but his first name is Don. I can get his last name. He's on the Mayor's detail. He's a lieutenant on the Mayor's security detail of the City Hall street detail. And right from that vantage point you could see that the tower, the World Trade Center tower, the north tower had been hit. There was smoke billowing out from the tower and it was an unbelievable sight, and Don was on the phone with City Hall. I remember saying to Kelty get me over to my car. So we were taking the golf cart down to the parking lot of the golf course.
On the way down to the parking lot of the golf course, we heard a rumble. We looked around. We thought it was right near us. And we looked up and Don, who was still on the tee box, the first tee, said two planes hit and put up two fingers.
On my way down to the parking lot I told James Kelty, I said I hope this is not a terrorist attack. When we were notified of the second plane hitting, I knew it was a terrorist attack and I said I've got to go to the site.
So I left him there, got in my car. I'm on the way to the city, Manhattan. I stopped at my house, which is right on the way. I don't live too far from the golf course. I changed my clothing, got on the Cross Island Parkway and then onto the Long Island Expressway. At that time other emergency vehicles were heading into the city and we kind of made a caravan along the Long Island Expressway on our way into the city.
Q:
Were you in radio contact at that point?
A:
Yes. I could hear them doing two fifth alarms. There were two fifth alarms being called in. I was calling Hooper Street on my cell phone to ask if Chief Richard McCahey had gone. They said he was on his way. I got on the radio and I could hear fire marshals responding from Manhattan, from Manhattan base, also McCahey responding. He was trying to get through the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. And I also called Hooper Street and I said the fire marshal of Hooper Street, they should respond also. At that point Bobby Byrnes was responding with fire marshals from SIU. I didn't know if other fire marshals were needed, so I didn't bother to call other bases to get Brooklyn, Bronx, or Queens to respond.
As I was responding, as you're going down the expressway, of course, you get closer, you could see the World Trade Center, both towers are burning.
Q:
You're still on the Queens side of the tunnel?
A:
I'm still on the Queens side, yes. I'm going over that hill right before you go through the tunnel and you could see the skyline of the city.
Q:
So you're west of the BQE at that point?
A:
I'm probably -- no. The BQE? I'm past the BQE.
Q:
So you're west?
A:
I'm west of the BQE, yes.
I went through the tunnel with my caravan of cars. They turned to go south down Second Avenue. I went down Second Avenue south but I turned down 34th Street. Let me see. Let me get this straight. In fact, let me take that back. I don't know if I turned down 34th Street or Houston Street. But I went south for a while. It was either 34th Street or Houston Street. But I wanted to go down the West Street side. I was headed toward West Street because I wanted to go down West Street and approach it from that side. I thought I would have a better chance of getting closer because West Street is a large street and I'd have better chance of getting by the apparatus because it would be parked on the side.
I went down West Street, went past Chambers on West. Of course, you can see the towers burning all that time. Every time you saw them.
Q:
Both towers were still standing at that point?
A:
Yes, both towers were still standing. I went down to West Street. I went past Chambers and I probably parked a block and a half up from Vesey. I parked right behind a rig. I don't remember whose rig it was. I parked behind a rig, got out of the rig. I remember there was a chaplain there. He called himself a chaplain. I think he's a rabbi who works in counseling. But he calls himself a chaplain. He had his badge out and I know that this rabbi works in counseling and the counseling unit will be able to help you identify him. He helped me on with my coat and I got my helmet, I got my turnout coat and started walking down the street.
In front of me I could see the two buildings were burning. I'm walking down West Street. I'm passing rigs. There were a lot of other rigs parked there. I don't know the numbers. I didn't look at the numbers of the rigs. I was on the west side of West Street, walking on the west side of West Street. I walked underneath the north bridge. I was trying to find a command post.
On the way down there, I could hear McCahey establishing a command post on the south side of the World Trade Center, and after looking at the buildings, I found that I probably had more space on the north side, so I really wanted them to come to the north side. I was trying to contact them by radio in the car to get them to go north. Well, first in the car I was in radio contact and I was asking them exactly where he was and he was trying to describe to me where he was on West Street. I knew it was south from the position I was at. But I hadn't assessed it yet until I got out of the car.
So I get out of the car. I'm walking towards him, going south on West Street. I go underneath the north bridge and at that point I come across Chief Ganci, Commissioner Feehan, and Chief Downey and they're standing across the street south of the north bridge looking up at the buildings and they're talking about what they're going to do.
Q:
Were they on the west side of West Street?
A:
They were on the west side of West Street. They were on the sidewalk on the west side of West Street. There were other firefighters around them. I could see them. There were firefighters across the street, but I didn't take note of who they were.
Q:
And this would be on the west side near the north bridge outside the World Financial Center?
A:
South of the north bridge nearest the World Financial Center on the west side of West Street on the sidewalk. I could see there was grass behind them, like a hilly grass behind them. And they were talking about we're going to move command posts. They were really involved in trying to decide what they were going to do here, so I didn't really disturb them too much. My concern was moving my command post to where I thought it would be safe.
Q:
Both of the buildings are standing at this point?
A:
Both buildings are standing. And I did not take my radio out of my radio charger in the car and I couldn't see McCahey. I was looking south. I couldn't see McCahey. I was trying to use my cell phone. My cell phone didn't work. I was trying to call Hooper Street or headquarters so that they can get on the radio and tell McCahey to meet me north.
Before I got out of the car, by the way, let me backtrack, before I got out of the car, I was telling McCahey I'm north of the bridge. I'll meet you down there. By the time I got down to Ganci, I felt that being north of the World Trade Center was better than being south. So now I wanted to get a landline. I remember at one point -- and I don't know if it was the first time I encountered them or the second time -- people were talking about moving their Fire Department command post north. So I felt that the fire marshals' command post should be north. I guess it may have been the first time I saw them because for some reason I started moving north on West Street again.
I went back underneath the bridge, walked north on West Street. I couldn't use my cell phone. I was trying to use my cell phone. Then I thought maybe I should get a landline so I could at least call headquarters, call Chris Tempro and have them radio Richie McCahey and the rest of the marshals to meet me up north.
Q:
Can I ask you one follow-up to something you mentioned before? You saw Chief Downey, Chief Ganci, and Bill Feehan outside the World Financial Center. During the time you were there, did you ever see Tom Fitzpatrick with those three?
A:
No, I did not see Tom Fitzpatrick.
Q:
Okay.
A:
I walked north. Now I'm north of the bridge and there's some firefighters around me, there's firefighters walking down past me south and there's some firefighters milling around. I don't know exactly what they were doing. I turned around, I heard something, and I thought the facade and just the facade of the south tower was coming down, and one of the firefighters near me was saying holy shit, and I think he felt the building was going to collapse. I wasn't convinced of that at first. I thought maybe it was just some facade falling. All of a sudden there was a rumble and you see the building starting to collapse. At that point I ran north on West Street as fast as I could possibly run.
Q:
At the point where you noticed the building was falling, were you south of Vesey?
A:
I was south of Vesey. I was probably midway between Vesey and the north bridge, that north overpass. I was probably midway there. And the building started falling and I started running and a lot of people started running. Whoever was around me started running.
Q:
Northbound?
A:
Northbound. We were running northbound up West Street. At one point I could turn around. I turned around over my shoulder and I just saw this cloud. I mean, the building collapsed. There was a cloud coming at you. You knew you couldn't outrun the cloud. You just kept on running trying to get away from it, but you're not going to outrun it, so you kind of resign yourself to the fact that you're going to be overcome by the cloud. You don't know what's in the cloud. You saw a lot of papers flying around in the cloud, but you didn't know what solid material was in the cloud, what structural members or facade was in the cloud that could be coming at you, so that you just kept on going. You're overcome by the cloud. You heard things hitting around you and you say to yourself I hope nothing hits me. What can you say?
Q:
At that point, or just prior to that point, did you know any of the people around you? Did you see anybody you recognized?
A:
No, I did not. I remember before the cloud got to me there was a fireman near me running with me, but when the cloud overtook us, you can't see anything. You had zero visibility. What I did was I ran into some fire trucks. You ran into them. All of a sudden you saw a light in front of you flashing where the flashing lights were on and you just kept walking. You couldn't breathe. You can't breathe. You had a very tough time breathing and you're just saying to yourself I hope I get out of here. Your mouth is full of dust, concrete dust, whatever other kind of material there was in the dust and smoke. Your mouth and your nose is full of all that and you're just choking and you're trying to breathe. There comes a point in time when that dust cloud settles or the wind takes it away from you and it becomes easier and easier to breathe and all of a sudden it's clear.
Q:
Any concept of how much time passed before that happened?
A:
I mean, it seemed like a long time, but it could have been only two or three minutes. It seems like a long time when you're in the middle of it. At that time you looked at yourself, you're just full of this dust from head to toe, your helmet, your coat, everything. And I turned around and started walking back to see what was happening. The second building, the north tower was still standing, smoke coming out of it. I'm walking back to see if I could find Ganci and Feehan and the rest of them and see what we're doing here now. I still didn't have communication with the rest of my troops. I don't know where the rest of my troops were. I don't know how this collapse affected them. So I'm walking back towards where I last saw the command post.
Now, at this point I'm north of Vesey. I'm probably a block north of Vesey. So I turned around and started walking south, got to around Vesey Street or past Vesey Street and I saw some Chiefs there, I saw a lot of people were there full of dust and trying to clean themselves off, spitting, getting it out of your mouth.
Q:
Nobody you recognized in that group?
A:
No, not yet.
Q:
Okay.
A:
And at one point someone comes along with a water bottle and gives me a water bottle to wash my face off and wash my mouth out with. And I'm walking now -- here is where my memory might be off. At one point I thought I saw Ganci and Feehan and I'm not sure if I really did. I'm very hazy. But I do remember seeing a Chief and it may have been Ganci, but there was a Chief there that said we're moving the command post two blocks north, which is the last thing, when I heard Ganci and Feehan the last time, they were considering moving the command post north. Now we're moving it two blocks north and people are walking north now.
Q:
The second building is still standing?
A:
The second building is still standing. People are starting to move towards me north and everybody is full of this dust and ash or whatever you want to call it. And the reason I'm saying I thought I saw Ganci, it may have been someone saying Chief Ganci is ordering.
Q:
So you moved north on West Street, you were moving toward --
A:
No. I'm moving south on West Street now. I've turned around and I'm moving south. So now I'm up to Vesey Street. I moved back towards Vesey Street where I'm encountering people moving north and these people are saying either Chief Ganci ordered it or I saw Chief Ganci, either one, or I might have seen Steve Mosciello. I'm not sure. But they said the command post is being moved two blocks north and Ganci's name is being mentioned. At that point I encountered Jerry Sheehan. During that time, during the time period before Jerry Sheehan, I might have seen Chief Pete Hayden over there. I believe Hayden was over there around by Vesey Street.
Jerry Sheehan is the lieutenant in charge of the NYPD Bomb Squad. He's an old friend of mine. I've known him for 20 years. And Jerry and I were trying to use our cell phones. At this point I want to get ahold of the marshals and just tell all marshals to stay away from the building and Jerry wants to get ahold of his Bomb Squad people. Neither of us had radios and neither of us had cell phones that were working.
So I walked one half block west on Vesey Street, on the north side of Vesey Street, one half block west of the West Side Highway, of West Street. There was a building and there was a parking lot in front of the building with cars in it and on the bottom floor was a bagel shop, like a bagel coffee shop type place, and Jerry and I went in there and we started using landlines. So Jerry made his phone calls and I made my phone calls and I was on the phone with Chris Tempro at headquarters.
A VOICE:
That's the Embassy Suites?
CHIEF GARCIA:
I don't know what the building is but there's that shop. It's the north side of Vesey.
A VOICE:
Is it all the way down towards --
MR. McALLISTER:
The movie theater; is that the one you're talking about?
A VOICE:
Yes. The movie theater is on the corner there.
CHIEF GARCIA:
Well, there was no movie theater in front of us. There was a parking lot there. The movie theater might be in the building on the upper floor.
A VOICE:
Yes.
CHIEF GARCIA:
And I got on the phone with Chris Tempro and I was going to tell him just get on the radio tell all fire marshals to retreat from the building, anybody south go south, two blocks south, anybody north go two blocks north of the building. I also had encountered James Devery, Jim Devery, Supervising Fire Marshal. I encountered him on the street, on West Street, and I saw Fire Marshal Sal Rignola. This is while I was walking down on West Street before I went on Vesey. Fire Marshal Sal Rignola was there and he had a radio and he couldn't raise anybody, which made me worried about what was happening. He couldn't raise anybody on his radio. But I later found out that McCahey lost his radio when the building collapsed. I told him I was going to go down to the shop.
So Jerry and I went down to the shop. I was getting on the phone. I got Chris Tempro on the phone when the second building suddenly collapsed and we could see the second building collapsing through the windows of this coffee shop. We were half a block from West Street and the collapse was just on the other side of West Street and we saw it collapse. To me, it was a faster collapse than the first collapse.
Q:
That was the south tower?
A:
The first collapse was the south tower. The second collapse was the north tower.
Q:
Okay.
A:
The north tower was now collapsing, but to me it was a more violent collapse. I don't know why. I think because the first collapse, to me, I thought at first, before it collapsed, it was just the facade going. This seemed to all of a sudden go down. To me, it was more violent. It may not have been in reality, but to me, it was more violent.
We got away from the windows. I dropped the phone and we told everybody that was in the coffee shop -- because the people who worked there were in there -- to get away and there were some firefighters or EMS workers there and they were giving us a bottle of water. We got away from the front windows because we thought they were in danger of blowing into the establishment. We went around into a kitchen area. There was a door right in through a kitchen area right by the phones and we were looking around the corner to see what was happening.
The collapse occurred. This cloud again. Once again, we've got this cloud, this dark cloud of dust and smoke and whatever else is there. We get that coming towards the windows. The windows did not break inward.
The collapse was subsided, so we came out. I got on the phone with Tempro. I told him the second building just collapsed.
Q:
Was it dark outside the window?
A:
Yes. You can't see anything. It was zero visibility. The building had just collapsed. I said get the marshals on the radio. See who you can get on the radio, number one, if you get anybody on the radio, and, number two, tell them to get away from these buildings.
We went to the front door of the coffee shop and myself and Jerry Sheehan started calling to people. So we were right outside of the door of the coffee shop. We started calling to people to see if people would come to us because we wanted people to get into the coffee shop. And some people did hear us. We could hear them out there and we were calling to them, calling to them. We got them into the coffee shop to get some water on them, on their faces. The people who owned the establishment were trying to help out with the victims.
When it started clearing a little bit, I saw Chief Brian O'Flaherty. Chief O'Flaherty said to me don't touch my arm. He was injured. Obviously, he was injured. His face was cut up. He looked like he had a broken nose because he was bleeding heavily from his nose, and he was holding his arm, so I knew he had a broken arm or something seriously wrong with his arm. I sat him down in a chair and I started talking to him. I know Brian for over 20 years, probably 25 years, and we got an ambulance. There were ambulances west of us. On the water there were ambulances. There was a triage station set up. So we were trying to direct Brian off the chair after we washed off his face to go to the triage. We were going to get him to the triage station and get him an ambulance.
Also coming in from West Street down Vesey Street was Pete Hayden being carried by two firefighters or two officers. He could hardly walk. He really needed help walking. We were trying to get him an ambulance also. We got him into the bagel shop and we did some treatment. We gave him some first aid, very little first aid, but just washing their faces off and helping them try to get their breath back. At that point I got some EMTs that had some of those gurneys or whatever.
Q:
Back boards?
A:
Not even back boards but gurneys, the ones that roll along the ground, and they were starting to take people back to the ambulances.
Q:
About how many people came into the coffee shop?
A:
It could have been as many as ten, twelve. You know, they were coming in and out. If they were able to leave, they would leave. They would wash off and get themselves composed and leave.
Q:
Uniformed and civilian people?
A:
Mostly uniformed people. EMS people, too. Mostly EMS people and firefighters. I do remember one woman being carried was a civilian.
When I went back out, now it's cleared, Brian O'Flaherty has been taken care of, Pete Hayden, Chief Hayden has been taken care of. Myself and Sheehan walked back towards West Street. West Street, of course, is a mess. The bridge is now collapsed. The north bridge is now collapsed. I see Fire Marshal Rignola and he has a radio with him still and I said to him can you get somebody on the radio? He did get somebody on the radio. I forget who it was. But they were south of the World Trade Center. They were south on West Street, way south.
He told me that he jumped into a tower ladder when the second building collapsed and that a piece of metal went right through his tower ladder, his front windshield. He was down on the floor and it just missed him. So he survived because he had gotten himself down on the floor in his tower ladder. But I saw the tower ladder. The cab was like demolished.
Q:
So the tower ladder was stationary at the time; nobody was operating it?
A:
No, nobody was operating it. It was just stationary. It was just parked there by West and Vesey. He just jumped in there to get away from the collapse and this piece of building went right through the front windshield. Luckily he had gone down. He was on the floor.
At that time Chief Fellini -- and I can't tell you how long after. Everybody was kind of wandering around on West Street wondering what they were going to do. Some of the fire Chiefs were saying we're moving north, we're moving north. That seemed to be the theme for a while, moving north, moving north, you know, before the second collapse, and then after the second collapse it was the same thing, let's move north. At one point I saw Chief Fellini finally arrived. He was there for some reason and he started taking some charge of the situation and he told everybody we're moving north.
I think everybody's concern at this point was, of course, who was trapped. There was no order here at all. They were talking about where Chief Nigro was and someone said Chief Nigro is in the command post south; he's all right. People started realizing Chief Ganci wasn't around. And this is just general talk.
Q:
Can you describe what you saw as you looked down West Street?
A:
Down West Street, well, what I saw was two buildings down, smoke coming from two buildings. The cars that were in the parking lot, there was a fire in the parking lot in front of that bagel shop I was in. It was like a big, open, empty lot with cars in it. There was a fire that started there and it was spreading to other cars and once in a while you'd have some explosions there and the fire actually after a period of time got pretty big because it was multiple cars. Several cars were going at once. So some debris from the building was burning and must have landed there and started these cars on fire. So you had this black smoke coming from these cars that were on fire, which no one paid attention to. We all said so what; let them burn themselves out. And you also heard what I thought were gunshots.
Later on, in a conversation with Jerry Sheehan, he told me those were real gunshots. Police officers that were trapped were shooting their guns off to try to draw attention to where they were trapped. I found out later on that Commissioner Dunne was trapped in a car in the first collapse and before the second collapse had happened the Bomb Squad had brought a car down because Dunne couldn't walk. He has a bad knee. If you noticed, he's been on crutches for a while.
Q:
Right.
A:
So a Bomb Squad car had gone down and gotten Commissioner Dunne right before the second collapse occurred. Commissioner Dunne had been north of Vesey Street when the second collapse had occurred because he was taken out by car. He had been first trapped in a car in the first collapse. These are stories I've heard afterwards. And when Fellini got there things started to come into order.
My concern, of course, was the fire marshals. So I was concentrating on trying to reach fire marshals. At one point I found out that Rignola, McCahey, and a bunch of marshals were south of the World Trade Center and they had moved towards Battery Park. And I knew I had fire marshals down there.
What I didn't know was that Supervising Fire Marshal James Kelty had left the golf course and was in 10 Engine when the collapses occurred with his brother, captain of 10 Engine. He described to me what happened there. When he got there, there were people injured coming out of the buildings and they were trying to treat people and bring them into 10 Engine and try to treat them, and what they thought was a third plane hitting was really at that point the first building collapsing.
Q:
10 Engine is on West Street?
A:
No. 10 Engine is on Liberty Street, on Liberty Street just east of the plaza. Why they didn't get touched, I don't know. I mean, the firehouse is a little beat up, but it was still standing. It's right on Liberty. Here's Liberty.
A VOICE:
Right here?
CHIEF GARCIA:
Yes. Where is the Trade Center?
A VOICE:
This is 2 World Trade right here.
A:
Yes. They're right here.
Q:
Okay. Got it. It's directly south of 2 World Trade?
A:
Yes, 2 World Trade Center.
Q:
Got it.
A:
And they were treating people and everybody was just trying to get to radios to see how they were. As time passed, I was able to determine where the rest of my marshals were. Chief McCahey came around to meet me north of the World Trade Center because I insisted on everybody coming north, but he said they were safe down south, but he also told me Chief Nigro was in a command trailer by Battery Park, that he was okay, that Chief Cassano was okay, but no one had seen Ganci or Feehan. The word was circulated that Ganci and Feehan were trapped or had been involved in the collapse. There was no talk about Ray Downey. But Ganci and Feehan definitely. I saw Steve Mosciello.
After that they were just trying to organize parties to go in there and try to get people out, and I saw my marshals. Basically what we were going to do at that point was stand by to see what we could help out with the digging and we would later decide how we were going to conduct an investigation and what kind of investigation was going to be conducted.
Q:
Did there come a time then when you did set up a command post north of the site?
A:
Not really. What we did was we used the site south. I had more marshals south than north. But there was no real formal command post ever set up. I hung around. I was near the command post they were setting up north of Vesey. I was near that command post. And the concentration at that time, it's not investigation, but everyone is thinking about how to get people out, and people were trying to break up into crews, it seemed like they were trying to break up into crews, but there was a lot of confusion. There was a lot of confusion.
Q:
Any idea approximately what time it was now, at this point in time?
A:
This has got to be I'm going to say about a half an hour after the second collapse. Before then really everybody was in a daze. Everybody was just trying to assess the situation, and it was a tough situation to assess.
Q:
Sure.
A:
I don't think anybody had ever seen anything like this.
MR. McALLISTER:
Are there any follow-up questions? It's pretty clear to me.
Q:
Chief do you have anything else that you'd like to add, any other observations that you may have had on that day?
A:
Not really. My observations are that, I mean, we've never had a situation like this. From an operational point of view, even though I'm not a Chief in operation, a fire Chief, I was a firefighter at Rescue 1, I was a lieutenant in the South Bronx fighting fires, and I had never seen so much fire in a high-rise building. Never. Even when I was in Rescue 1 as a fireman in rescue in Manhattan. I have never seen more than one floor going and an entire floor. You're talking about multiple floors and the entire floor from west to east, north to south, an entire floor burning. That's a lot of fire. I don't think we were capable of putting out that much fire in a building.
My other observation is that the airliners crashing into the building may have weakened the building, but that is not what caused the collapse. What caused the collapse was the intense fire from the jet fuel that continued burning along with combustible materials on multiple floors and the fact that the building was built with a core construction. The floors were supported by the core and also by the skin of the building, the steel outer skin of the building. That's how those floors were supported. So here you have an airliner coming in, one airliner came in straight and hit on an upper floor, that was in the north tower, and it hit probably in the 90s, the floors it hit. The upper 90s it hit. The second plane, which caused the first collapse, as it came into the building banked, it banked, so the wings, if you saw the film, the wings hit multiple floors now. Now the amount of floors that were hit were greater because the wings had banked. So then you have the wings going into floors above and below the main fuselage of the plane, and it also hit near the corner and it hit on a lower floor, probably 20 floors below, somewhere in the 80s, in the low 80s, 83rd floor, somewhere along there, 83rd floor, 81st floor. That's where the second plane hit. Now, that's in the south tower and that's the first tower that collapsed. So you have that plane hitting.
Now you have all this intense heat, you have heat probably up even close to 2,000 degrees burning here. Steel joists and steel I-beams, at 1,200 degrees of heat they'll expand nine inches per hundred foot of steel. So per hundred foot of steel, steel will expand nine inches. So you have this expansion going on because they've been subjected between 45 minutes to an hour and a half to heat now. The second tower to collapse was the first one hit. That was an hour and a half after it was hit.
Q:
What do you estimate the temperature was at that time?
A:
Reaching 2,000 degrees in those towers. So now we're going to have this steel expanding and also it starts warping and twisting. So once it was weakened to that point, the steel, besides the crash, it was weakened by the fire, which really caused it to collapse, one floor started collapsing into another floor, and that's what caused the collapse. So it was really the fire more than the plane crashing into the building that caused the collapse.
How do we operationally treat that in the future? I don't think we can. I think we restrict our efforts to try to get people out of the building, but we don't have enough water or enough manpower to get up in that building and put out a fire that's that extensive in one of these buildings.
Q:
In the period of time?
A:
In any period of time. It will burn itself out before. Either the building is going to collapse or it's going to burn itself out. In the Empire State Building, the Empire State Building would not have collapsed. It's different types of construction. It's not core construction. It's masonry, it's columns, it's heavier built. But then, of course, you don't have these big, open spaces. In the Empire State Building, it's more compartmentalized.
Q:
Right.
A:
So a building like the Empire State Building would not have collapsed. You would have had a huge fire there, you would have had a lot of floors burnt out, you would have never put out the fire, it probably would have burnt itself out also, but the building would have stood. This type of construction, I don't think we'd ever be able to put out a fire like this. We restrict our actions to evacuation rather than trying to put the fire out, and that's the only observation I could make.
MR. McALLISTER:
Does anybody else have anything? Okay. It's now 11:48 a.m. on October 2nd, 2001. This concludes the interview with Chief Garcia of the Bureau of Fire Investigation. Thank you, Chief.
File No. 9110003 CHIEF MARK STEFFENS
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 3, 2001
Transcribed by: Laurie A. Collins
M. STEFFENS
MR. McALLISTER:
I'm McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. We're interviewing Chief Mark Steffens of Division 1, formerly the commanding officer at the Office of Medical Affairs. The date of the interview is October 2nd, 2001. It is now 2:47 p.m. This conversation is taking place in conference room 8E13 at Fire Department headquarters.
I'm also joined by --
MR. CAMPBELL:
Patrick Campbell, fire marshal.
MR. STERACE:
Fire Marshal Michael Sterace.
MR. McALLISTER:
And Chief Mark Steffens.
Q:
Chief Steffens, I'd like to draw your attention to the date of September the 11th, 2001, and I'd like for you, in your own words, to describe your experiences from that day.
A:
I normally start work at 9:00, so at 8:50 I was still home showering, getting ready for work. I saw what happened on the television going on. I heard what happened. I saw initially the first tower on fire.
I got dressed as fast as I could. I got into my department vehicle, and I proceeded all the way to the Kosciusko Bridge down the BQE. My next recollection is being on the FDR Drive. I don't remember how I got from the BQE to the FDR Drive.
My next recollection is I'm coming down the FDR Drive. I get down to about the Staten Island ferry terminal, and I couldn't get any further. Civilians were running everywhere. There was smoke in the air, and the white powder was in the air. I think only the first tower had dropped at that point.
Q:
Had dropped?
A:
The people who were running, they said the first tower had dropped already. So I would imagine this is probably like about -- I'd say somewhere between 9:15 and 9:30, thereabouts, by the time I got into Manhattan.
I abandoned my vehicle at about the Staten Island ferry terminal. I pulled over there, by where they have the chopper pads on the East River. I abandoned my vehicle. I put a mayday on the radio that I was abandoning my vehicle because I did not have a portable radio with a charged battery at that time.
So I got out. I was on foot. I was heading up South Street to Division 1 on foot. That was as far as I got. Coming down South Street was Jerry Bacchus, who was the ALS coordinator for the EMS command. He picked me up.
Q:
He was in a vehicle?
A:
He was in a suburban. He had the suburban stocked with medical supplies. He picked me up, because I was on foot at that time. I got in the suburban with Jerry Bacchus. We went down the drive, under the hole, out onto West Street. We got up to about the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
When we got to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel, about that point on West Street, there was a Port Authority cop standing there. They were shouting, "The tower's going to come down. The tower's coming down. You've got to get out of here."
Q:
What were you able to observe at that time around there?
A:
Black smoke. Black smoke and people running everywhere. A lot of fire apparatus on both sides of West Street. I didn't see any guys, just apparatus. I saw some stretched lines and things like that.
So we continued to drive into the smoke cloud. We got to maybe one block north of where the Battery Tunnel exits onto West Street there, and then, boom, a massive explosion. Right in front of us we saw what looked like a fireball and smoke. It was rolling this way.
I said, "Jerry, we've got to get out of this fucking car." I'm afraid --
Q:
That's okay.
A:
I'm afraid -- so we bailed out of the truck.
Q:
This is your recollection.
A:
We bailed out of the suburban. We went underneath it. The thing blew over us. I had my turnout coat on. I put my face in my helmet. The thing blew over us. I felt heat. I felt all kinds of debris and stuff hitting my body.
When I opened my eyes, it was pitch-black. I closed my eyes again. I was praying. When I opened my eyes a second time -- and it feels like each one of these instances was a long period of time, but I don't know how long it was.
When I opened my eyes a second time, it was like skiing in a blizzard. It was just white, a sea of white, and everything blowing all around. So I felt okay. "Jerry, we've got to get out of here."
We got out from under the vehicle. We got back in the vehicle. We jumped over the divider and started driving back down West Street to the battery. We got to battery -- we put the vehicle up against where that old fortress is right by the Holocaust memorial. There's an old fortress right where the Statue of Liberty ferry terminal is.
Q:
Sure.
A:
We put the vehicle up against that wall, and each one of us climbed into one of those cubbyholes.
Then there was another -- it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder, papers, flying everywhere. We sat put there for a few minutes. It kind of dissipated. We pulled the vehicle out, right down to the battery. We turned on the emergency lights, and it became a casualty collection point.
Q:
Had you been in radio contact from the time you were on West Street?
A:
The last radio contact was when I maydayed when I bailed out of the vehicle. No other radio contact after that point.
Q:
There wasn't a radio in the suburban?
A:
There was a radio in the suburban, but I don't recall that we were using it. We were running at that point. We were coming down West Street. One of the EMS guys was running. He was just dressed in blue, covered in soot, bleeding from under the face like this. We grabbed him. We threw him in the back of the suburban. We pulled down to West Street.
When the smoke and all of that dissipated, we turned on the lights. It became a casualty collection point there. All the EMS people were running down West Street. They collected by our vehicle.
All kinds of vessels, barges, little small pleasure craft, everything was just pulling up to the dock, and we were putting civilians -- there was one police lieutenant -- I don't know his name. He did a fantastic job. And we just evacuated as many civilians onto these boats and sent them to Jersey.
My guys established that casualty collection point. We were doing eye washes and boo-boos and giving out whatever masks we had to civilians and to cops like that. We were there for what seemed like a couple of hours at the battery until the point there was nobody left, just the emergency service people.
At that point I became aware of an EMS operation that was going on in the Staten Island ferry terminal. So I gathered up my guys, and we walked on foot to the Staten Island ferry terminal, where I was reunited with the other folks that established the casualty collection point at the Staten Island ferry terminal there.
I was there for a couple of hours, and then we were all directed to report to the command post which was at Chambers and West.
M. STEFFENS 9
That was early afternoon. We regrouped and were given various assignments. I was sent to command the Chelsea operation.
Q:
So you think that when you were on the drive the smoke you saw was probably from one of the aircraft and not from a building?
A:
No, because it wasn't heavy smoke. You could smell fire. I know the smell of fire, and I have been around long enough. So I recognized the smell of fire. But there wasn't all of that debris or anything flying around in the air. There was just people, people everywhere, people running.
I got to the point where I couldn't go any further with my vehicle because there were people in the streets, on the drive. So that's when I decided to bail out of the vehicle, figuring I could make better time on foot.
Q:
Sure.
A:
My thought was let me go to Division 1, group whatever I could so we could go to the incident site.
Q:
When you were on West Street approaching the World Trade Center site, do you think that's when the first tower came down?
A:
I think it was the second tower came down, although I don't know for sure.
Q:
Was there a lot of debris while you were still going on West Street?
A:
No.
Q:
Powder?
A:
No. A lot of fire apparatus, a lot of engine companies like that.
Q:
The street was clean?
A:
It seemed wet. There were stretched lines. I didn't see my guys. This seemed weird to me, all this apparatus but no guys. There were lines stretched on the ground but no guys.
Q:
So it was clear while you were going up West Street?
A:
Yes. That's when we heard this massive explosion and I saw this thing rolling towards us. It looked like a fireball and then thick, thick black smoke.
Q:
Is it possible the second one occurred while you were in the battery?
A:
The second one had to have occurred while we were at the battery, because that's when all this white stuff started flying around.
Q:
That sounds right.
A:
But the timeline -- I don't know when these things actually occurred in real time. I was home at 8:50. I had to be in the car before 9:00. I was just about dressed. I was shaving, putting on the finishing touches, when I saw the thing on the news. I ran to the car. You can look at my unit history in the CAD system, see what time I logged on and proceeded down there. It took me a while to get down the BQE.
Q:
It seems like there was about a 45-minute period, between about 9:45 a.m. and 10:30.
A:
8:45.
Q:
No, I'm talking about where the both the buildings came down. I'm not entirely accurate on that, but that's what it seems like to me, at the time.
A:
It seemed like the time frame between what we saw on West Street and what occurred when we were at the battery, it seemed like they happened close together. But when I think about the things that occurred during that period of time, it couldn't have been close together because too many things happened. But it seemed like they happened very close to one another.
The whole thing seemed like it happened very quickly from getting no further with the vehicle so let me just pull this car over and bail out, what I can do on foot. I didn't get more than a block or two -- you know where the fire station is on South Street?
Q:
Yes.
A:
That's where I was. Jerry picked me up right there. We went right into the hole, came around up onto West Street. I didn't know what the hell -- when the Port Authority cop tried to stop us -- he waved and said, "No, the building's going to come down."
At that point I wasn't listening to any cop. My thought was I've got to go there. My guys are there. Then boom and the cloud. I didn't want to stay in the vehicle. I was afraid that the windows were going to blow out. My reflex action was to get underneath it.
Q:
How did the vehicle survive when you got out from under the vehicle?
A:
Just covered with soot. It didn't blow out any windows or anything like that. I guess we weren't close enough. So the vehicle survived. It had a lot of powder and stuff on the windshield like that. At that point I was just grateful to be able to get in and get the hell out of there.
Q:
Is there any follow-ups? I want to know, did you see anybody on the way that was present that you knew besides the guy that picked you up, Bacchus? Anybody else? Did you see anybody else from the Fire Department?
A:
No. No, I grabbed the one EMS guy. I never saw him before. I remember his name is Badillo, Benjamin Badillo, an EMT in the Bronx. He just came out of the cloud, poor kid, covered, bleeding down the face. I grabbed him and said get in this truck, and the three of us bailed out to the battery.
Q:
Any follow-ups?
Do you have any other observations, Mark?
A:
When I went back to recover my vehicle, I recovered my vehicle and caught up with Chief Basile and Chief Villani. We were going to go look for their vehicles. We drove out onto West Street. I came from the Statue of Liberty ferry terminal. My car was on the east side, so it was fine, it was okay.
We drove back down again. We weren't able to go down the hole. We went onto West Street. When we pulled onto West Street, it was just like nothing I've ever seen in my life. All the apparatus, the fire trucks, everything all blown out, the windows were all blown out, body parts lying on the street, mud, soot, people walking around dazed.
I saw one proby -- he had a proby on the helmet -- by himself, walking by himself. I tried to get him to come with us. He said, "No, no, I've got to go back. I've got to go back." We washed his eyes. I gave him something to clean his face. Then he turned around and went back into the cloud. I never saw him again.
There were lines stretched --
Q:
Do you recall his name?
A:
No. Young, young guy. He had a proby on the front of the helmet.
Q:
Any numbers on there?
A:
I can't remember. I can't remember at all. I didn't want him to go back, and he wouldn't listen to me. I wasn't going to hold him back. He walked off.
Q:
That was after the second or after the first collapse?
A:
After the second. He just walked back into that big, black cloud.
That's as much as I recall.
Q:
I appreciate your time today. Thank you very much. Thanks, Chief.
A:
I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help.
MR. McALLISTER:
It's 3:01 p.m., and the interview is now concluded.
File No. 9110004 PARAMEDIC MANUEL DELGADO
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 2, 2001
Transcribed by: Nancy Francis
M. DELGADO
MR. McALISTER:
This is Kevin McAlister from the Bureau of Administration. It is October 2nd at 2:03 p.m. We're in conference room 8E13 at Fire Department Headquarters, and in a moment we will begin interviewing Paramedic Manuel Delgado. I'm here today with...
FIRE MARSHAL CAMPBELL:
Patrick Campbell, Fire Marshal.
FIRE MARSHAL STARACE:
Michael Starace, Fire Marshal.
MR. McALISTER:
Now we'll start with Paramedic Manuel Delgado. He's assigned to the Office of Medical Affairs.
Q:
Drawing your attention to September the 11th, could you describe where you were working that day and when you became aware of the World Trade Center incident?
A:
It must have been about five to 9:00. I got a call from Joe Farrell, who is a DOH rep from the Bureau of Emergency Services, the Department of Health, calling me saying what's going on at the World Trade Center? I had no knowledge of it. I looked immediately to the CAD, the computer-aided dispatch system, in the computer. I noticed that there was a 1040, a plane into the World Trade Center. I called him back and advised him of such.
At this point, one of the doctors that was here, Dr. Cherson, I advised him of the fact that there was a 1040 going on and maybe, you know, it's part of our response matrix.
Q:
What's a 1040?
A:
An airplane into a building.
So I called Commissioner Clair, who at that time was up in Albany in a CMAC meeting, let him know what was going on, and I told him I would get back to him as soon as I got to the scene. Myself, Dr. Cherson, and we met up with Dr. Guttenberg, who is the EMS fellow in the office downstairs, us three proceeded to get in Dr. Cherson's car and drove across the Brooklyn Bridge.
Obviously, when we were driving across the Brooklyn Bridge, it was very obvious that there was something serious going on at the World Trade Center. There was a gaping black hole. It seemed like the upper floors, and I don't know exactly -- now I know through press reports what floor more or less was hit, but it looked to me like the top ten floors were fully engulfed in smoke at this time.
Q:
How many of the towers were burning; one or two?
A:
One. Only one at this time.
So we went across the Brooklyn Bridge, had a little trouble navigating through the traffic, and finally arrived at the corner of I believe it's West Broadway. Let me look on this map real quick. West Broadway and Vesey.
As soon as we arrived, a massive explosion goes off, and at this point we didn't know what it was. We thought it was a secondary explosion. We didn't know that it was a second plane. In fact, I didn't know there was a second plane until much later in the evening.
An explosion goes off. I immediately tell everyone to get out of the car and hide somewhere, go underneath something. It's interesting because, as we were there, there was a police car, I guess, on Vesey, on the corner there, and some debris comes down from whatever this explosion was, at the time we really didn't know, and it just crushes it, I mean, crushes the top front of the police car, which really scared me at that point.
Q:
Could you tell if it was airplane parts?
A:
It looked like an airplane part afterward, yes, it did. It looked like part of an engine. It was pretty big. It was probably the size of the hood because it kind of hit it, bounced, and then rolled off.
So then at that point we were approached by a police officer holding one of his cops with a massive evulsion of the forehead. I need the car, I need the car.
Q:
What does that mean in layman's terms?
A:
An evulsion is the scalp sort of like was peeled back. So there was some heavy bleeding. It was worse actually than the injury. She still had her consciousness. He says, I need the car, I need the car.
So Dr. Cherson proceeded to West Street to the temporary command center at that time. Me, the cop, and the cop who was injured and Dr. Guttenberg got into the car and drove this cop that was injured down to Beekman. We drove the cop to Beekman, dropped her off. At that point people were being mobilized at the hospital itself.
Dr. Guttenberg and myself then jumped back in the car and went back to the site.
Q:
When you say you went back to the site, where exactly did you go at that point?
A:
Well, we couldn't get back to where we were on Vesey and West Broadway, so we ended up on -- now, let me look on the map here. Up further. Broadway itself, Broadway between, I would say, Fulton and Ann Street, I guess it is. Fulton and Ann, yes. We kind of left the car there in the middle of the street and proceeded to walk down to the West Street command, which was a command post at this time.
When I got back to the command post, I was able to secure -- because everyone's cell phones seemed to be dead at that point. Luckily, one of the lieutenants there handed me a cell phone. I was able to call Commissioner Clair, who was still in Albany, telling him at this point we had a very, very serious incident going on, and that I don't know how he and the other physicians who were up there could get themselves down here as quickly as possible because this was a major terrorist attack. So he told me that basically the state police were securing a chopper for him and the other two physicians to fly them down. That was my last communication with him.
So we were at West command for a while.
Q:
Can I ask you a detail question before you get there?
A:
Yes.
Q:
The West command, I see it located here on the map roughly at the corner of -- what is that, Vesey and West?
A:
Yes. That looks like Vesey and West, I guess?
Q:
Yes. That's the north bridge, I think?
A:
Right. We were just in front of the north bridge.
Q:
Could you describe, were you on the east side of West Street, the west side?
A:
We were on the west -- well, no. I would say the east side of West Street. I guess, on the middle, there's like a barrier here, sort of like a potted, planted barrier before you get to the financial district area. So we were all standing there. The vehicles or the staging, which is the area where the ambulance was set up, was back here on West Street.
Q:
Who was with you at that point in time?
A:
At that point, Dr. Cherson was with me. I saw Commissioner Drury showed up at the scene. He was with us there for a little while. He was looking for Commissioner Gregory. Captain Jace Pinkus from Communications was there and an assorted amount of EMS Lieutenants and Fire Operations people were around. I remember at one point seeing the Mayor. I saw Commissioner Von Essen. Really, at that point, I really lose sight of what was going on because there was an horrific site. I mean, people were starting to jump or fall from the top.
Q:
You were able to observe that?
A:
Yes, definitely. We saw them jumping from here down and that was really horrific. There was nothing you could do for them. We wanted to go in after them and they basically told us don't because it's very dangerous at this point.
Somewhere along the line Dr. Cherson was told that -- and I don't know who relayed this information to him. I guess it's Vesey command, but actually it was on Church between -- I was closer to Cortlandt and I don't know what street this is. Dey Street?
Q:
Dey Street.
A:
Actually, that's where the command post was, a triage command, and we were told that they were getting hammered. So what happened was that myself --
Q:
That was a staging point for medics and EMTs?
A:
Yes, right. Exactly. That's where mainly all the medics and EMTs were starting to treat people as they were exiting the building. So myself -- well, first, before that, Dr. Cherson tells Dr. Guttenberg to go back to the car and get the weapons of mass destruction kit, which is basically the TUPAM, the atropine and the narcotics that we carry in case of a biological incident. That's what immediately we started thinking. So Dr. Guttenberg goes back to the car.
At this point, also, at the north bridge, we ran into Dr. Asaeda, who got down there on his own response. So Dr. Asaeda was going to set up a command over in the lobby of OEM. What building is that, 7? Tower 7?
Q:
7 World Trade Center.
A:
7 World Trade Center. So Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda were to set up their command -- there were already some medics and EMTs in the lobby of 7 World Trade Center. So they were going to set up their own triage and command center there. Dr. Cherson and myself then walked back to the Vesey command. But at this point it wasn't right on Fulton. I remember Cortlandt more than I do Fulton, although it might have been. I don't know. I remember the opening of the building and seeing the north tower right in front of me. That I remember very clearly.
We were getting hammered with patients. At one point we wanted to move forward and again we were told do not. Dr. Cherson made it very clear, don't go any more forward because of the bodies and everything else that's coming down.
Q:
So now, just stopping you at that point, both of the towers are still standing?
A:
Both of the towers are still standing, yes.
Q:
You're looking basically straight at the north tower?
A:
Right.
Q:
You're looking across the plaza of the World Trade Center?
A:
Yes, right, and people are exiting this way in droves. I mean, there was just a stream of people running, running, running, and basically at this point our triage was, if you're walking, keep walking, and if people are being carried or people were falling, we would move forward, and we moved forward as much as in between towers I believe this was 4 and 5, buildings 4 and 5.
Q:
That's right.
A:
I know we went in there and helped some people come out, some lady, who she ended up in the pictures, in a red dress, who was extremely burnt. There was another guy who had to have second and third degrees over about 80 percent of his body, and he was carried out halfway and I guess collapsed or someone dropped him and just ran. We picked him up and started bringing him out.
At this point we were getting an influx of equipment, LSU unit, like the logistical support units who carry the oxygen and all that stuff. They were coming into the area to give us oxygen, to give us blankets, and then units were also coming in. But we were getting inundated with patients. We had more patients than we had ambulances. We were stuffing four and five people in an ambulance at this point. I mean, it was just to get people out of there with minimal treatment. There was nothing you could do.
Q:
At that point in time, did you see anybody you knew either from the fire or the EMS side working the ambulances?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Who did you see?
A:
Quite a few people. There was Carlos Lillo, who I later found out he's deceased.
Q:
Where did you last see Carlos?
A:
Carlos was with me and it's interesting because Carlos always had a smile on his face, and Carlos has been around for a while, and I remember at one point on Church we had like four or five critically, critically ill people who were laid out and there were people still streaming out, and this is after, where we're moving back and forth trying to get people in and out, I remember turning and seeing Carlos with his helmet and tears pouring down his eyes, and at first I thought maybe this guy is overwhelmed, maybe he needs to get out of here, you know? I go to him, Carlos, what's the matter? What's going on? He says, my wife's in there. I said, listen, man. This is God's will. You've got to help me with the people. Snap out of it. We've got a lot of patients. You've got to help me here. So he does and he begins to do what he has to do, which is to help me treat people and start sorting who is bad and who isn't.
Now, time, I have no idea, time factor here. I don't know what is five minutes, what is two minutes, what took ten minutes. I know that a Lieutenant showed up with the LSU unit, again, and says, I need help getting oxygen out of the back of this vehicle. I remember seeing oxygen tanks in a milk crate.
By the way, the other people who were here were Lieutenant Bruce Medjuck, who is from the EMS operations, Captain Janice Olszewski. I remember seeing -- Dr. Cherson was there with me. I lose track of who was there really. I mean, I remember Lillo because it sort of stuck out in my mind that this man was crying so hard and like it kind of -- he was out of place because I was wondering for a slight moment, said, what's he doing here? He's a Queens unit. But at this point I figured everyone was being brought in and who knows what the heck is going on.
Q:
Did you lose track of him then or did you see him?
A:
Well, it's interesting because I didn't lose track of him because I was concerned. I was concerned of the fact that he was overwhelmed, I think, by the fact that his wife was in the building.
Oh, you know who else I saw there? Gabe Delapena.
Q:
Delapena?
A:
Delapena, yes. I saw him also there because at one point he goes, Manny, Manny, what's going on? He's another one that was searching for his wife because I believe his wife was in the tower.
Q:
I think that's right.
A:
Yes. But I tried to keep my eye on Carlos as much as I can. I'm dealing with the people that are coming out. There's some other people there that I don't really know their name. I know their faces. A black gentleman that works down for operations also. In fact, there's a picture of them both treating that lady that I'm talking about with the red dress in one of the Time magazines that I forgot his name. It will come to me in a minute. But anyway, we're treating.
I remember at one point or another this Lieutenant coming in and asking for help to get the oxygen out of the vehicle. I go to help him, and at that point I remember not seeing Carlos, and I don't know if he was there or not there. But immediately once I put the oxygen down, I hear the rumble, and I heard a rumble that we thought was another plane. That's what immediately everyone said, there's a plane coming, there's another plane coming.
So we all looked up and what we saw was tower, I guess, 2, the south tower, begin to do this. The top kind of did this and there was a horrendous rumble.
Q:
Now, your hand is showing that it's kind of tilted in one direction. What direction did it tilt?
A:
It was tilting towards us, so it had been to be tilting eastward.
Q:
East?
A:
Maybe southeast. I'm not sure because at this point it's total pandemonium. At that point we hear the rumble and, you know, this is it. I figure I'm dead. I thought this tower was going to topple.
So I start to run. I remember running -- I don't know which way I ran. I don't even know what street I ended up on to be very honest with you. I ran -- it must have been either this or Fulton. One of these two.
Q:
Dey Street or Fulton Street?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Do you know if there was a church next to you?
A:
I don't know. I know there were stores up the block. So I start to run --
Q:
So you definitely headed east; you're just not sure down what street?
A:
Yes. I didn't want to go west. I figured let me go east. There's a subway station somewhere here, so it may have been Fulton maybe?
Q:
Yes, it was. It's a major station there.
A:
I remember seeing that and I remember saying I'm not going down there because I don't want to be suffocated, I don't want to be suffocated. But as I ran, I got knocked down by it seemed like even someone punched me in the back, like a blast it seemed. It just kind of picked me up and knocked me down. I scraped my elbow, I twisted my ankle, my pants got all ripped, my glasses got blown off and the helmet came off. I get up quickly and all I can see now is just -- it had to be on Fulton -- the blast, this dark cloud coming at us, at me anyway, because I don't even know who's around me at this point. You kind of lose all -- I lost all track of time. I lost basically all body movements and I was going on, and then we're engulfed in the smoke, which was horrendous.
One thing I remember, it was hot. The smoke was hot and that scared me. I've treated in 18 years many, many people with smoke inhalation, and I know the consequences of inhaling heat. So I got really scared. I tried to put my T-shirt over me. That didn't work. I couldn't see because my glasses were shot. I couldn't see because my eyes were irritated. Like one guy said, it was like breathing cotton balls, that's what it felt like, because your mouth was just full of this shit and your nose, everywhere. I'm running -- not running because I'm walking now. I'm afraid. I'm thinking in my mind I'm going to die of suffocation or somebody's going to run me over, because you couldn't see your hand in front of you. That's how dark it got. I walked into one or two poles.
Then out of -- I don't know. It was God's miracle, basically. I don't even know how I ended up there. I was on the corner and, as I was telling them just before you walked in, I heard a banging and I walked towards the banging and there was, as later I found out, it was a Fire Marshal and a cop, a detective in plainclothes, who were banging, trying to break the door down in one of these computer stores on the corner there.
Q:
Do you know the marshal's name?
A:
No. He did take our names down, so he should have a record of it. I haven't been able to find out who he is. So they're banging on the door, and I remember telling the cop, you know, you have a fucking gun, you have a fucking gun, use it, use it, we're going to die out here. REDACTED
Q:
Sure.
A:
That's exactly what he does. In between his coughing, he takes out his gun and the first bullet doesn't break it. Second one, the glass comes down. It must have been a thick glass. We were able to get inside.
Q:
So he fired off two shots?
A:
Two shots, yes. Then inside there's, I guess, like a gate, sort of like the gate that we have downstairs in that store, an inside gate. So we see that and we're like, oh, shit. So, finally, us three, we hold it up and we let the civilians get underneath. I think there were one or two of them. There weren't a whole lot of them. Or maybe three. I'm not even sure at this point. They go under and we hold it for each other and we go under and we go into the store. We walk up some escalators to the second floor, which looked to be like a computer store. We started looking for water or anything to wet ourselves to clean off our faces because we're all coughing and hacking. We find a water fountain and we all basically drink from that and wait for the smoke to clear a bit.
Q:
Is the smoke in the building, though?
A:
Yes. And the smoke alarms are going off and who knows what else is going off. There's smoke but it's not that bad, though, so you could see. It's a haze. It's sort of like when you're in a club and you see the haze, you know, it's hazy, it's not necessarily black, pitch, acrid smoke that was outside. I would say about five or six, seven minutes go by while we're inside. It seemed like an eternity, you know what I mean? So we told the civilians, look, just head towards the water. Leave. Get out of the store. Go towards the water and keep walking. Just keep walking. Don't go this way.
The three of us proceed -- and I don't even know what street it is. I think it was Fulton. It might have been Dey Street. I don't even know what street it was. We start heading back. I believe the store was probably on Broadway. I think I made it that far up. I'm not even sure, though. It had to be because it couldn't have been on Church.
Q:
It wasn't J & R was it?
A:
No. I know where J & R is over by City Hall. No, I wasn't that far. It had to be around Broadway. So I remember we go outside and I lose track of where they went and I start heading down I guess it's Fulton Street and I heard the rumble again. So now it's the second tower coming down.
Q:
Now, just prior to that, had the air cleared outside?
A:
Yes. It had cleared to the point where you could see. It was still smoky. There was still a heavy smoke condition in the area and dust, I mean, and papers and debris and God knows what else was in the air. But it looks even like snow sometimes because that's kind of coming down from everywhere.
Q:
Were there any people out on the street at that point?
A:
There were people walking around, yes, in a daze. It looked like a moon landscape really. The lights were on, cars were driving by, and then more dust would be kicked up. I remember walking down and then I heard the second rumble, and I don't even know where it was now. I'm not even sure if I went back to Church or what. But we heard the second rumble, turned right around and started running again and went -- and I remember just going -- I don't even know what street. Now that I look at this map, I don't know what street I was at to be honest with you. I don't know if I got back to Broadway or -- I know I ran backwards, not backwards, but I turned around and started running back up again and went into there was this liquor store -- not a liquor store. It was a clothing store and there were some people in there already, and I got in there, and there was also, I believe, another Fire Marshal in that store. I don't know who he was. I think he was a Fire Marshal. I'm not sure because he wasn't a cop. We were able to use the phone in there to try to call out, but whoever I was calling, I was trying to call some of my people but their cell phones weren't working. That was it.
Then, at that point, five, fifteen minutes went by, I guess, before the smoke cleared again. There were very few people in the street at this point. I ended up on I guess it must be Fulton over by Beekman Hospital. There's a little triangular square. It's not even a park. It's like a little square. I ended up there and I ended up running into Dr. Cherson. That's the first time I saw him since the incident went down. Then we ran into Bruce Medjuck, Lieutenant Medjuck, and Bruce had a radio, because Alan's radio was blown off of his pocket or whatever and I don't know where it went, and he told us that we were assembling down at the ferry. That was going to be the main place to try to get people treated there because we weren't going to get around to West Street or to Chambers Street where they were trying to set up another command post because both buildings at this point were down.
So that's what we did. We walked -- I don't know where we walked, but we walked downtown all the way to the ferry terminal, and at that point Chief Basile was there with his aide and some other people were there and we started to get ready for mass casualties to see how many people were coming and who we could try to help. But there were no patients. Nobody was coming.
Q:
Not a single patient came to the ferry terminal?
A:
A few scratches, bumps, bruises, people who had already left the building way before, some people with some difficulty breathing, one guy with a broken ankle, another one with some trauma to the chest, but nothing life-threatening, that was the big thing. Nothing gory. I mean, they were walking wounded for the most part, and that's all we treated.
So a bunch of physicians came from surrounding hospitals, nurses. We got all our resources together, established a critical and a noncritical area, and that was it.
Q:
How long was that area set up?
A:
Well, from the time we got there, they had already started to move the benches to cordon off the area, and I guess within 20 to 30 minutes the site was set up to accept critical and noncritical. Then our resources started coming in more rapidly, so we were able to get a lot more stuff like extra equipment, blankets, cots. So we had about 20 or 30 critical areas to treat and Dr. Cherson at that point was the Chief medical officer there and started assigning physicians and nurses who were there and medics to certain areas. Then at the street level we had a staging area where the ambulances were being mustered and somebody was taking care of that area. I don't know who he was, some Lieutenant. But nothing ever came.
Q:
How long did you stay there?
A:
We stayed there until about, I guess, 4:00 o'clock, and later on I found out this happened about 10:00, I guess, when this thing collapsed. It must have been about 10:00.
Q:
Roughly, yes.
A:
So it must have been about 4:00 o'clock. What we did is we found out that they were setting up a command post on Chambers and West. So we said let's go back and try to find Dr. Cherson's car, see if it's still viable, which we did. We went back to Broadway where it was between Fulton and Dey. Is that Dey Street or whatever it is? There it was in the middle of the street. Amongst all the dirt and everything else that was there, the car was there. It was full of dust on the inside. We ended up driving to Battalion 8 first to wash it off and try to clean off some of the dirt and dust that was all caked onto the vehicle, and then we went to Chambers and West, where the command post was set up, stood there for a little while, and then building 7 collapsed.
We were very far and at this point I remember being there and they said it's collapsing and I didn't even give a shit anymore because, first of all, I was far enough away from it that I kind of knew it's not going to freaking hurt me and, really, I don't know if I was just in a mood that I just didn't give a shit or I felt kind of safe. People started running back and I was just...
At this point my leg started to hurt me, which is interesting. All through the day it didn't hurt me. But I started feeling a tinge in my ankle.
So building 7 came down, the OEM building, and then they moved back forward and the command post was set up and we started hearing of the casualties. That was sad. That was sad because a lot of my friends are dead. A lot of them. On both sides. And that's a shame. That's a shame. But basically that was it.
I'd say about 9:30 at night, I hitched a ride with some vehicle that was coming to Brooklyn and they dropped me off on Tillary and Flatbush and I hobbled in here. They gave me clothes and stuff and told me to take a shower and that was it. I came back to work the next day, still not understanding, still not really -- which was interesting because, when I got home that night, I got to see the incident. I lived it, but I had never seen it, because I had never seen the planes hit or anything. We thought they were bombs going off. We didn't know. We were being told later on that the Sears Tower was hit and the Pentagon, and you hear all this shit, but you don't know. Actually, when I got home that night, that's when I got to see the actual footage of the plane hitting. It was horrendous. More so when this thing collapsed. That noise? I can never forget it. And the people jumping, the people hitting. I mean, 18 years I've been a medic in this city. I've been through two plane crashes. I have never seen the destruction.
Another thing I've got to tell you is, when we first got there, when we were walking down Vesey towards West, there was a ton of -- or I could say a lot of body parts and like baggage, clothes and stuff, along Vesey.
Q:
From one of the airplanes.
A:
Yes, from one of the airplanes. I don't know if it was the first or the second because this was after the second one had hit. So it could have been from either one. But I remember walking --
Q:
Where was it, though? On Vesey?
A:
Right in front of the OEM, because on the OEM building side there was a scaffolding and I remember I was walking underneath there. We kind of felt that there was some protection underneath the scaffolding. I remember as we were walking down, after we had dropped that person off, when we were walking down Vesey, I remember probably between -- what's this?
Q:
Church?
A:
No. Probably between Broadway and West, I remember seeing body parts.
Q:
That's West Broadway.
A:
Yes, West Broadway and West on Vesey. I remember seeing body parts and I remember saying to myself where the hell did these freaking body parts come from? Where are these coming from? There was a few. I mean, some recognizable, some that didn't look -- like they were probably charred, and also like luggage stuff, like we saw a lot of shoes, even some luggage, airplane parts, engine. There was an engine on the left here. If you remember, building 7, there used to be that overpass over by building 7. Just in front of it.
Q:
The concourse.
A:
Just up before that, there was like a little plaza?
Q:
Right.
A:
Right there, there was like a big engine part. It seemed like a whole engine was right there, lying right there in the middle of the street.
Q:
Covered like the way the jet looks?
A:
Yes. In fact, you could see the fan. I remember that because I could see -- now, it wasn't the whole engine because the engine is big, but I know the front part of it, it looked like the whole engine because I could see the fan, and that's what stood out in my mind. There was an airplane tire also there and then these bodies and luggage from the thing because there were shoes everywhere also. Some shoes had what looked like blood in it, other shoes didn't, other shoes were burnt, and this was just a first impression.
I guess the severity of this whole incident kind of struck me as I was walking to West Street. I knew that this was a serious, very serious event going on, because in my lifetime I have never seen that much destruction, that much carnage. Never. Never in my life have I seen something like that. Everything from bombings that I've been to, to airplane crashes at LaGuardia, I've never seen something to this magnitude, and it kind of woke you up to say the least.
Then over here people, you know, the guys were going into the building. I mean, it was horrible. It really was. It really was. And that was it. I'm here today because I think the grace of God. REDACTED. I had a few patients who I wish I could have carried away, but you didn't have time. You didn't have time to think. I don't know where Lillo went. I don't know if he went this way or he went that way. Where did he go? I don't know. It's interesting because, of the seven or eight people who were there at this location, none of us ended up in the same place. It's sort of like roaches and you turn the light on, you know what I mean? Everyone scattered. Wherever you saw or you thought there was an opening, that's where you went. Obviously, no one went towards the building, but we all scattered in different directions.
We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also.
So it's just the grace of God. I mean, there was a tremendous loss, but I think that more people survived than really should have to be honest with you with the destruction that occurred there. I mean, you guys have been to collapses. You know what I'm talking about. You have a three-story building collapse, you know the destruction that occurs there. Magnitude that now by a hundred freaking stories coming down on your head.
Q:
And by two.
A:
Yes. And two of them. So it was the grace of God that any of us that are alive are here, truly it is, because it just should not have been. Luckily and unluckily, I guess, the building pancaked. But if that building toppled, there ain't no way. It took less than ten seconds for that blast of air to knock me down because I remember saying to myself, I got ten seconds to hide, thinking that I may have that long. I don't know why it came into my mind, ten seconds, but I figured I got ten seconds, and I could only maybe have run 50, 60 yards in that time period, and it just knocked me over.
Q:
Just the force of the air?
A:
Yes. It just knocked me over and just threw me, and that was it. I thought that something had hit me. I thought like a piece of metal or something had hit me, and there was no metal, because when I turned around, I saw the blast of black air coming at us, at me anyway, and that was it. That's it. That's the story.
MR. McALISTER:
Do you guys have any follow-ups?
FIRE MARSHAL CAMPBELL:
No.
FIRE MARSHAL STARACE:
No follow-up for me either.
MR. McALISTER:
I appreciate your time.
THE WITNESS:
Sure.
MR. McALISTER:
Thank you very much.
THE WITNESS:
No problem. Thank you.
MR. McALISTER:
It's now 2:35 p.m. and we're going to conclude the interview.
File No. 911005 DR. MICHAEL GUTTENBERG
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 2, 2001
Transcribed by: Maureen McCormick
DR. MICHAEL GUTTENBERG
MR. MC ALLISTER:
This is Kevin McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. It's October 2, 2001, at 1510 hours. We are here with Dr. Michael Guttenberg from the Office of Medical Affairs.
Also with me are --
MR. CAMPBELL:
Patrick Campbell, Fire Marshal.
MR. STARACE:
Michael Starace, Fire Marshal.
Q:
Dr. Guttenberg, we'd like to draw your attention to September 11, and in your words, we'd like you to describe what you experienced on that day.
A:
Okay. Actually, I was just coming in to the office and was on line waiting for breakfast when the pager went off for the assignment for the World Trade Center.
I picked up the cell phone and got in touch with Dr. Shearson and Manny Delgado from the office, who were also leaving to respond, as well. I met them in the parking at MetroTech, and we proceeded to respond. I don't recall the exact street, but we went over the Brooklyn Bridge, and as we were about one block away from the assignment, there was an extraordinary loud explosion.
M. GUTTENBERG
There were people starting to evacuate from the area, and then we noticed the tower that was burning -- and as we were one block away from the assignment, we heard an extraordinarily loud explosion, and with that, many more people went running in the opposite direction, at which point there was, I guess, a few seconds of radio silence, and then somebody came over the air and said, "A second plane just hit the other tower." At that point --
Q:
Can I talk for a second? I apologize. As you were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge, do you recall approximately what time it was?
A:
48 -- I'm going to say it was approximately -- the second plane hit at what, 9 -- I don't recall the exact time.
Q:
Roughly 9:10, I believe.
A:
It was 9:10? So we were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge. Had to be about just a couple of minutes after nine, five after nine.
Q:
What were you able to observe at that point on the Brooklyn Bridge?
A:
From the Brooklyn Bridge and actually from Flatbush Avenue and Tillary, as we were going towards the Brooklyn Bridge, we noticed the tower that had been hit, and the upper floors were -- well, we could see flames and a large amount of smoke billowing from that one tower, and that's all that we observed from a distance.
Couldn't see much else, and at that point, actually, it was picking up the cell phone and attempting to start making some, you know, notifications and just that this was a real assignment.
Q:
And what did you notice from the time you were on the Brooklyn Bridge until the moment you alluded to a few seconds ago, about the second plane hitting? Could you describe what you observed from the streets?
A:
I was actually -- I was in the back seat of the car, so I didn't see anything above me per se without having my head out the window, which it wasn't.
What we noticed was actually a lot of people of various assortments. Most people in suits, people on their way to work, being -- and in a somewhat orderly fashion, being evacuated.
Everybody was sort of between the traffic department and the police was trying to pull everybody away from the -- away from that area. The buildings were evacuating and people -- the streets were packed with people, all -- most of which were attempting to move in the opposite direction from the towers.
Like I said, I don't recall the exact street. Manny was driving, and we were coming down that one block. I wasn't looking up, and just out of nowhere was this tremendously loud explosion.
The truth of the matter was, we didn't see the other plane coming in. I thought it was a second explosion from the first plane, and then it was some radio silence for just a couple of seconds. I guess people were kind of floored by what they just saw, and then there was somebody keyed up on the radio, from the EMS citywide radio, that said that was a second airplane, and then at that point we were within a block.
As we were actually coming down -- and I'm going to presume, but don't hold me to this, it was possibly -- it was actually one of the side streets, and I just don't recall.
At that point, we were getting ready to actually park the car a couple of blocks away, and we got out of the car, and we were approached actually by a couple of police officers who were in plainclothes, one of which was holding her partner up, was holding her partner, and she was bleeding from the forehead and had some other assorted injuries, but was walking and was just screaming, "Just take me to the hospital."
So Allen, Dr. Shearson, got out of the car, started to proceed up to what was at that point the designated command post, and myself, and Manny and this other -- and the two police officers, we threw them in the back of the car and brought them over to New York downtown, and then we proceeded back to the incident site.
Q:
Do you recall the injured officer's name?
A:
No, we didn't even get that far. It was about a one to two-minute ride. I was holding direct pressure, talking to her. It was a female officer, who had a laceration across the forehead. We pulled up to New York downtown. There were people already outside some of the -- and we assisted her in, and we just left.
Q:
Did she say how she received that injury?
A:
From something flying, flying off, you know, off the building, and Manny was probably better off at this. I'm not totally familiar with this area, but Manny proceeded back to the incident location.
Once again, at that point, there was a greater urgency on the part of the police to move everybody out of the area, and --
Q:
Were both buildings still standing at this point?
A:
At this point, yes, both buildings were very much standing. We parked the car, and I don't recall what street it was on. Myself and Manny proceeded up to the command post, and at this point actually we walked -- we probably -- that is what I was going to say. We probably parked on Church, because we walked -- I remember we walked down Vesey past Building No. 7 and some other buildings and went to the initial EMS command post, myself and Manny Delgado.
We met up again with Dr. Shearson, and Dr. Asaeda at this point was also meeting us on the scene, and the rest of the EMS operations were commencing from there. I, at that point then went back to the car and grabbed the poison antidote kit out of the car, not knowing what to expect or what was next, came back to the site, and at that point, you know, the decision was made we were going to split up a little bit, and there were going to be some forward triage and treatment areas.
Q:
Before you go forward, could I backtrack for one second?
A:
Yes.
Q:
When you went back to the car to get the kit, could you describe what the conditions were like during the walk both to the car and back, anything you may have observed?
A:
It was actually -- the streets were, at least the walk down Vesey Street, the street was remarkably empty. The only people that were out there were some firefighters, police, FBI-type agents.
There were some fire trucks, which were unattended by and large, and some hose line, and there was some meager attempts at putting up some police tape. The other thing that I noticed, like I said, and it was very few -- they were, like, few to no civilians at this point, and it was really an effort to move people forward.
The other thing that was actually evident, though, is what appeared to be some plane parts, like some circular pieces of a plane, and lots of shoes. I don't know if that was women jumping out of their -- jumping out of their heels to run, but there were -- just impressed me there were no -- you know, there were no injuries on the street at that point, but there was lots of shoes all over the place and plane parts. It was the same thing in both directions.
At that point, like I said, I went back to the command post.
Q:
Just one other follow-up. I'm sorry. Did you see any of the unit designation numbers on the engines that may have parked out there? Do you recall any of the numbers?
A:
No, no. The only thing that was kind of bizarre actually -- and I don't recall if it was -- which direction I was walking at the time, but actually I think Chief Nigro was walking down Vesey Street at this point, too, and he was actually by himself, but he was walking down the street somewhere.
The -- went back to the command post, and at that point we decided to split up a little bit. Allen, Dr. Shearson, and Manny went off somewhere, and myself and Dr. Asaeda proceeded to the loading dock of World Trade Center No. 7, which would be preQ. No. 7 is on -- this is No. 7, here, I believe. Where is the loading dock?
A:
It was on the Vesey street side. On the Vesey Street side, and we were in the process of setting up. Not anticipating the buildings were going to come down in such a fashion, we proceeded to set up a triage treatment area in the loading dock. Myself, Dr. Asaeda -- there was one or two EMS bosses there. I don't recall who they were, and lots of personnel. Most of the EMS personnel that were there were actually from the voluntary hospitals, some Lenox Hill paramedics there, and from some other voluntary hospitals, and there were some FBI agents down there, as well, some people from the Office of Emergency Management, who were actually upstairs and supposedly brought some supplies down to us.
There was only one patient in there at that point, and that was an elderly gentleman who was really there more for exhaustion, not claiming any injury, but anticipation was obviously our patients were going to come down.
While we were there, we started to hear this rumbling sound, and this was probably five, ten minutes after we got into the loading dock. We heard this rumbling sound and, you know, the rumors were there of additional planes missing, and actually, my initial thought was this was actually another plane, and there was the loading dock, and then it was like the top of the dock, the garage, and then the loading dock.
Just off to the right, there was a door with a fairly long, narrow hallway, and at this point, there was probably between police, and FBI and EMS people, was probably about 20 plus people in this loading dock area.
Q:
Do you know anybody there?
A:
All of us -- Dr. Asaeda, and just by face some of the EMS providers. We all stuffed ourselves into this hallway, pulled the door shut, and the noise just got very loud and the room filled with dust. The noise stopped, and we opened up the door, and everything was pitch black.
The way we got into the loading dock was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.
Q:
The door was blocked?
A:
Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door.
Q:
What looked like was blocking the original entrance?
A:
You know, there was a couple of people who actually pulled some of the -- that pulled the actual garage doors down. I think that and some debris. It was too dark at that point.
We walked our way through the loading dock by feel. We got to the opposite side. We found our way out of one of the back doors of No. 7 and came outside, and actually the truth of the matter I still hadn't realized that it was the tower that came down. I thought it was another airplane, and I looked up, and it was after, you know, everything was sort of pitch black, and there was dust flying everywhere, and I looked up, and it didn't strike me at first, but when I looked up, all I saw was -- I saw the tower with the antenna, and I remember when we went in, that was -- it seemed to be the more distant tower when we started, and you know, there was -- and now, that's what struck me.
It wasn't making sense just yet. We found some patients, who were just walking around in a daze or experienced some inhalation type of injuries. There were a few ambulances there. We basically threw them in the back of the ambulances. We told the providers who were there, just go far, go to another borough, take them somewhere else, and with that, the rumble started again and the second tower came down.
Q:
Let me stop you there.
A:
Yes.
Q:
When you came out of No. 7, do you recall what side of the building you exited on?
A:
We -- I ultimately ended up back on West Street, so I'm going to think -- and it was some parking lots and stuff like that. So I actually -- I think I came out by Barclay, and proceeded back down -- ultimately proceeded back down to West.
There were some parking lots in the area. There were other some buildings around, and just by where I ultimately ended up and continued to run, I was on West Street.
Q:
So that's where you were treating patients prior to the second building coming down?
A:
We were treating patients, yeah. We were treating patients around here, and from there we proceeded up to -- and then the second building came down, and not really knowing what was going on, we ran a few more blocks.
Q:
At that point, we settled the street just past -- just after Chambers. We passed the school. We saw Stuyvesant. Just right around Stuyvesant, Chambers, in that area, within one to two-block radius above and below.
We tried to re-establish ourselves one more time in some sort of triage treatment area, not knowing what was happening. We were just tracking down who was around, trying to get some ambulances into that area to stage in that area. It seemed at that point that we were a safe distance away, and then all of a sudden everybody started running again and saying there's a gas leak under West Street, and literally, fire engines, police, whoever was left standing at that point, everybody just started running north on west towards the piers, and --
Q:
Did you know anybody there at that point in time?
A:
On West Street?
Q:
Either at the time you were treating the patients before the second tower came down or in the time you were heading north toward --
A:
Yeah, Dr. Asaeda from this office. Joe Cahill, who is one of the ALS coordinators who works out of MetroTech. He was actually on a -- I guess on a train on his way in to work, and so he came on his own, but he was assisting us there.
I just -- a lot of faces that I knew from the voluntary hospitals who were there, and I guess those were the people who stand out most.
Another person was actually one of the nurses who works at the hospital where I work, and mostly by face, not really by name.
Q:
So what happened after you heard of the possible gas leak?
A:
Started running. Everybody sort of picked up and ran. There was a passing police van with very few passengers. As they were driving, I opened up the side door and dove in and got away a few more blocks, got out and started to, you know, I guess attempt to regroup.
At that point, the decision was over the radios that everybody was -- the attempt was to get everybody to stage up at Chelsea Piers and regroup up there and define what resources we were going to need, so that's where I -- at that point, I went up to Chelsea Piers and up to the EMS command post.
Q:
Any idea what time it was at that point?
A:
At that point, it was probably getting close to eleven o'clock in the morning, and that's where I spent a good chunk of the rest of my day.
Q:
A long two hours.
A:
A horrible two hours. I mean, there was a lot of running more than anything, and, you know, by and large, it was bizarre only because I really -- I actually felt more numb than anything throughout. I didn't know what to feel or what to expect, and I think a lot of it was just bizarre that way, not knowing what was next.
Q:
Did you have a radio on?
A:
Actually, I didn't.
Q:
Transmissions throughout?
A:
Actually, you know, I didn't. I'm sort of low man on the totem pole here of the fellows, so I actually didn't acquire a radio, which they needed up at that point at Chelsea Piers.
Whatever radio stuff I heard was when standing next to other people. I didn't have a radio in my possession for several hours.
Q:
I think we need to -- transmissions or anything that's going on that you might have -- that stuck in your head?
A:
From that whole day, actually, the two things -- well, initially, I don't know what happened as the buildings fell. There was nobody close enough with an EMS radio at that point when the buildings came down, but I guess initially it was a relative calm on the radio.
As much as this was not a routine thing, a plane into the World Trade Center, this was sort of something that the resources were available that were being sent. Everybody was sort of following instruction and doing and operating in a normal fashion. It was what you would expect at an MCI.
The part that was really bizarre is actually -- what seemed bizarre is there was the second explosion, you know, the second plane explosion, and then it was -- at least on the EMS radio, there was absolute silence for probably 10 or 15 seconds, you know, which to me, it seemed like 10 to 15 seconds, but it was absolute radio silence for a few seconds. I don't know if everybody was just sort of --
Q:
We were told that the air was so thick with debris that radio waves weren't able to travel.
A:
That was after the towers came down.
Q:
After the collapses, immediately in the immediate aftermath?
A:
I wasn't really -- you know, at that point, I was running, and I wasn't close enough to anybody with radio in hand. It was frustrating as hell, I can tell you, when the cell sites went down, which was right -- really as soon as this incident began. All I wanted to do after I got out and a safe distance away was actually just call my folks and say, you know, I'm alive, and that was the worst thing.
I mean, it took hours and hours for the cell sites to come back up, at least at Sprint. That was really for me the worst part of this whole thing, was not being able to make a phone call.
In a bizarre way, the best person on the street there that day was some little old Spanish lady who says I live a couple of blocks from here. She had a pad and a pen, took down a list of names, a list of phone numbers -- took down a list of names and phone numbers and called, and she got ahold of my parents about two hours before I did, and -- so.
Sorry I couldn't offer you more.
Q:
No, that's great. I appreciate your time, doctor?
A:
No problem.
MR. MC ALLISTER:
Thank you very much. It's now 1530 hours on October 2, 2001, and we are going to conclude the interview. Thank you.
File No. 9110006: PARAMEDIC JAMES MURPHY
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 3, 2001
Transcribed by: Elizabeth F. Santamaria
J. Murphy
KEVIN MC ALLISTER:
This is Kevin McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. It's October 3, 2001, 1224 hours. We are in room 8E13 at headquarters and we are speaking with Paramedic James Murphy from the office of medical affairs. I am joined by --
MR. DANIEL:
Patrick Daniel, Fire Marshal.
MR. STARACE:
Michael Starace, Fire Marshal.
KEVIN MC ALLISTER:
And James Murphy is with us.
MR. MURPHY:
James Murphy, Paramedic.
BY MR. MC ALLISTER:
Q:
Mr. Murphy, we are going to draw your attention to September 11, 2001, and I would like to get your recollections of the event of that day.
A:
I was here in the office and someone came down the hall. I think they got one of the group pages that there was a job at the World Trade Center and we looked in the computer in the CAD system and saw that there was one, an aircraft incident at the World Trade Center, and then we heard yelling from the office of public information, so we all ran down there. Because we knew the televisions were there. And we saw that something had happened to the World Trade Center. A couple of people from the office, two of the doctors and one of the medics, took off right away and the rest of us sort of stayed around getting ready to do whatever. And we ended up preparing to go get an ambulance.
We left here, went to Cumberland, got equipment that belonged to one of the guys that worked here who couldn't go out and then went to Woodhull Hospital and got an ambulance and responded from Woodhull Hospital with the ambulance.
When we went across the bridge, it was the last time we saw the towers. We went across the Manhattan Bridge and they were both still standing. We went across, I think, Canal Street.
Q:
Were both of the towers burning at that time?
A:
Both towers were burning at that time. We didn't leave until after the second plane hit. By the time we got through traffic to Woodhull to get the ambulance, I'm not -- the timing on that I'm not sure. The only timing I really know is that we arrived between the time the first tower fell and the time the second tower fell somewhere on Broadway, around City Hall and I don't remember whether it was at the junction of Park Row and Broadway or higher. I know Warren Street is there somewhere. Whether that was the first place we stopped or whether that was where we actually ended up stopping, I don't know.
We went across Canal Street and then I went and turned and went down Broadway. We were heading into the staging area, which I believe was like on Church Street, somewhere around there, and --
Q:
Do you have any idea what time it was at that point?
A:
No. We had the radios on in the ambulance, but we didn't hear anything about the buildings collapsing because the siren was on. The truck was not the newest or the quietest thing in the fleet, so we couldn't really hear the radios that well.
We turned down Broadway and as we got down in the City Hall area, there were people running everywhere and a lot of smoke and dust. We really weren't sure what it was. Which sort of surprised us, because the last thing we saw was the smoke was really up high.
We saw, then, an EMS Captain, Janis Olszewski, standing in the middle of the street covered with dust waving at us. That's where I'm not sure where we stopped with her.
Q:
Somewhere on Broadway?
A:
Somewhere on Broadway, around City Hall. And whether it was up by Warren Street or farther down, I'm not really sure. I just know that Warren street was involved in our stopping at one point.
We started treating some people at that point as they were running by. It was mostly like eye injuries from the flying debris. People were covered and they were having trouble breathing.
Then we did hear a report that the second tower was starting to collapse and the Captain who was with us said, "Let's get out of here." Because she had heard the rumble then. It had reached us and we turned and started running and then I realized that I could drive a lot faster than I could run, so we grabbed the truck and I grabbed everybody else that I was with.
That's when I'm not sure where the stop came. Whether I stopped first at Warren and then we went on, but the Captain just kept going, kept going. I know we didn't stop running until Canal Street.
Q:
What did you observe at that point while you were running and what was the state of the street, if you recall?
A:
More people running, lots of people. The dust cloud I saw sort of in the mirror, the second one, as it was coming down. But I was too busy trying to avoid hitting the people that were running in the street.
When we finally stopped to start treating people, we decided -- the Captain felt safe and we decided we would go as far as she was, because she was obviously under the first one when it came down. She was a little, you know, a little, I guess, stressed. I don't know a better way to put it. When she finally felt comfortable, we stopped and started setting up.
We ran into two EMT's and I'm not sure whether it was before we left or after, who had been at the staging area and had to run from their ambulances that had patients in them. Which was not good for them. It wasn't good for us to hear it either. But they started helping us to treat people at the scene. Again, it was very minor stuff, because nobody got to us that was pretty badly hurt.
Q:
The other EMT's you ran into left ambulances with patients in the back near the collapse?
A:
Yes. I'm not sure where those ambulances were. They ended up going a different way than us afterwards. Oh, because we had the Captain. They told her to report to the command post, so those EMT's stayed with ambulances that were staging somewhere else and we responded to the command post with that Captain. REDACTED
Q:
Which Chief?
A:
Mittleman REDACTED and then went back to the command post and ended up at Chelsea staging.
Q:
Where was the command post that you are referring to?
A:
It was -- I don't even remember where we went. It was on West Street somewhere. It was on West Street somewhere.
Q:
Was it north of Chambers?
A:
Yes. At that point we didn't get anywhere back down there until -- I didn't get back down that way until the next day. We stayed up at the Chelsea -- the Chelsea Piers, and the three of us got assigned to do various things there: Assist the doctor who was there in setting up the hospital, in arranging which doctors and nurses were going to work in which areas. Because they set up a whole hospital in the Chelsea Piers and we had various tasks of organizing the medical assistance and stuff like that.
That was it until I went back the next day with the doctor. We actually started walking around the site and looking at what was going on. Telling people that they should put their masks on and that kind of stuff. That filled up the whole next week pretty much.
Q:
Any other recollections about the date of the incident? Anything you might have seen that you recall? Any people you might have run into that you recall?
A:
I know by the end of the first night -- well, by 10:00 o'clock the first night we had heard that all of the people from our office were safe, but that some of them, like the doctors, had lost things like their glasses. Dr. Cherson was working at the ferry terminal without his glasses and he can't see. He's like me. I have contacts on. He had lost his glasses so we don't know how he was working, but he was. But everybody from our office was okay and then we had heard that there were hundreds of firefighters trapped and it was just -- everybody was -- you know, and then you started seeing people from the outer areas. We wondered how they got there so fast. You know, some of these guys were covered in dust and going back in again.
The first hour went so fast for us. It didn't seem, because we had to get from here to the place and then back again. We didn't realize that it had taken so long. It was just like moments, it felt, from the time we left here to the time we were running from the second building coming down. We didn't even know the first one came down. We had no idea when we pulled up that that's what that was.
Q:
So it was still burning when you were in Brooklyn?
A:
When we came over the Manhattan Bridge, you could clearly see both towers standing there burning.
Q:
Anything else? Radio transmissions that you recall?
A:
No. We took -- we had radios from here with pretty bad batteries. That was on our portables. But the truck radio, we got a truck from -- the actual vehicle radio wasn't very loud and the truck was really loud, and the siren, so I didn't hear. I'm sure there was a transmission about the first building coming down, but we never heard it. And there were three of us in the truck listening to the radio and none of us ever heard it. The first we knew was when Captain Olszewski told us that one of the towers had fallen. That was the first we heard.
Then just before the second tower came down we heard a radio transmission about the second tower is falling. And then the Captain heard the rumbling. We all heard it, but she recognized it for what it was and told us, "Let's get the hell out of here." Because she heard the first one coming down. We never heard that one come down.
Q:
Was it a distant rumble or was it really loud?
A:
It started off distant and got loud and then as we started running the sound sort of disappeared in the background with all the other stuff that I was doing and the sound of the ambulance engine as I started driving.
Q:
Did the cloud of debris ever catch up with you or were you far enough?
A:
No. Never caught us. That's why I'm thinking that maybe we never got any farther than Warren Street. Tracey and Dee -- we don't know -- we were talking about it and we couldn't figure out whether we stopped farther down or whether we stopped at Warren Street. We are just not sure whether we got any farther down.
The one thing I do remember is after we stopped running, people were actually -- one guy passed us. Everybody was offering us food, drink. We were sitting treating people and some guy ran past us with three knapsacks. One on his back, one on his chest and one in his hand and he stopped and handed everybody a bottle of water in the ambulance and continued on. We could see the dust cloud and he just ran in with bottles of water.
Q:
A civilian or --
A:
A civilian. Other people who were walking away said, he said, "I brought my lunch for work but obviously I'm not going to be working today. Would you like it?" People were offering us stuff all over the place.
A city sheriff came over to us and said, "Do you guys need water to treat people?" We said yes, because we only had the little bottled water in the truck and we knew that wasn't going to last very long. The next thing we know, there is a city sheriff and two other guys with 5-gallon jugs, probably from -- it said "Poland Spring" on it so it must have been a Poland Spring truck. I guess the guy just opened the doors and started giving it out to people. We had huge bottles of water in the truck to rinse people off.
Then people wanted to rinse their mouth out. You can't keep having them all put their mouth on the same thing. Then I went to a little -- a little tiny, hole-in-the-wall deli and asked the guy for a couple of cups and the guy comes out and gives me a whole case of cups. It's gotta cut huge into his profit margin, but he didn't care. He just gave me a whole bunch. So then we started giving sleeves of cups to the ambulances that were sitting there. Then we moved on. That's actually before we moved to the command post.
Captain Olszewski had to actually go into a store and use a phone, because all of our cell phones were dead. I guess there was just so much going on on the radio that she decided not to use the radio, just to call somebody. I'm not sure who she called, but then she said, "You gotta take me to the command post."
Q:
Any other recollections?
A:
No.
KEVIN MC ALLISTER:
Thank you very much. Interview concluded at 1237 hours on October 3, 2001.
File No. 9110007: EMT DULCE McCORVEY
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 3, 2001
Transcribed by: Laurie A. Collins
D. McCORVEY
MR. McALLISTER:
This is Lieutenant McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. It's 1252 hours on October 3rd, 2001. We're in Room 8E13 at Fire Department headquarters, and we're about to interview EMT Dulce McCorvey. I am joined by --
MR. CAMPBELL:
Patrick Campbell, fire marshal.
MR. STERACE:
Michael Sterace, fire marshal.
MR. McALLISTER:
And.
EMT McCORVEY:
Dulce McCorvey.
Q:
I would just like to draw your attention to September 11th, 2001. Give your recollections from the events of that day.
A:
The times are a little blurry. I don't remember -- I know we had gone downstairs. It was like around 8:00, and I went downstairs with someone to get coffee. As we were coming up, everyone was running out of the buildings, the elevators. I almost got run over by a lot of white shirts and a lot of gold.
We came upstairs. Everyone was running. We walked by OPI. We saw on the TV screen that a plane had already hit the building, the first building. I pulled the job up on the CAD screen, and that's what it said, it was a cargo plane (inaudible).
So at that time I went over to my supervisor. One of the docs and one of the paramedics was going out already. She told us to hang back and wait and see what happened. I don't know exactly what she said.
By the time the second plane hit, I had already gone downstairs, gotten my equipment out of my car that was parked outside on Flatbush Avenue. You could see the smoke coming from the buildings, because you could see the buildings from the back of this building. I could see the smoke coming back -- in the back of the building.
I came upstairs. She said, "We've got to go find an ambulance." There was myself, Jim Murphy, and Tracey Mulqueen. We tried calling the different stations. Cumberland down the block, they said to come down and get an ambulance.
We got in my car, all the equipment and the three of us, and drove to Cumberland. They couldn't give us an ambulance. The captain said they didn't have any available at the moment. We went down to Woodhull. We went through a lot of traffic. We finally got an ambulance. It wasn't stocked or anything. So that delayed us a bit.
We got in the ambulance, and we drove down to the Brooklyn Bridge or the Manhattan Bridge. I don't remember which bridge we took.
Q:
Did you have a radio with you?
A:
We had a radio. We had a portable radio. The battery died, so we couldn't get any communications out. The KDT in the ambulance was broken, so we couldn't log on. So we were getting -- I don't remember hearing what they were saying, because I was sitting in the back of the ambulance, and Tracey and Jimmy were sitting in the front. I couldn't really hear what they were saying.
We were listening to citywide, and there was a lot of communication. I couldn't tell what it was. We had the siren on, and there was a lot of confusion trying to get around traffic, people trying to get on the bridge, people blocking us.
It was the Manhattan Bridge. We got off the Manhattan Bridge, because I remember getting off at Canal.
Q:
There was a lot of non-emergency traffic on the bridge?
A:
Yeah. Well, no, they were blocking off the bridge.
Q:
Oh, I see.
A:
They were diverting them, so it was hard getting onto the bridge. When we finally did get on the bridge, the bridge was clear. So it was the Manhattan Bridge.
I don't know what road we went down, because I couldn't see too clearly. We ended up on Broadway. We were speeding down Broadway following -- there were traffic cops directing everybody go down that way. So we followed them.
We were going down Broadway. I don't know exactly at what point we stopped on Broadway. We saw a captain that I knew her from the academy, and she was full of dust. We didn't know where we were going. We were looking for the incident command center. We really didn't know. We were just going towards the building.
When we saw her, we pulled over to help her. She was saying an explosion -- she didn't say the building went down; she said she was under the building when the plane went down. That's what I remember. We tried to calm her down, because she was upset.
Then we heard this loud noise like another plane. That's what we thought it was, another plane. It was a real loud rumbling. I can hear a lot of people screaming. We didn't know what it was, and we turned around and saw people running the opposite way on Broadway, running north on Broadway. We could see this big, black cloud of smoke coming up. I said, "Oh, shit."
We turned around, and Janice says, "Run!" So we ran. We started running. We turned around and ran. Janice ran, and Tracey was running, and Jimmy was right behind us. I didn't see where Jimmy was. I stopped and screamed, "Jimmy!" I didn't see him. He had gone back and gotten the ambulance and turned around.
He pulled us into the ambulance. We ran into the ambulance. All I could see is behind, because I was in the back of the bus. All I could see is this big cloud of smoke coming and people just coming out from inside this cloud of smoke. You could see from the side streets, like you could see smoke coming down the side streets, swelling up the road.
So we just kept on going. At one point we slowed down and we stopped in front of 26 Federal Plaza. I said, "We can't stop here. We've got to keep on going." So we kept on going, and we went up close to Canal Street. I don't know what street we stopped on. We stopped there.
Q:
During that time when you were on Broadway and heading north on Broadway, did you notice any fire apparatus?
A:
I saw no fire apparatus. I saw no firemen at all.
Q:
Any other EMS vehicles?
A:
I saw two other EMS vehicles. Where we had finally stopped, there were two other EMS vehicles. Two guys came out. They were running. They came out without the ambulance. They work in Manhattan, I'm pretty sure. They said they weren't in shock. One of them was crying. I can't remember his last name.
He said there were two patients in the back of his bus. They were strapped to a long board. He had to run, and the building fell on the ambulance. So I don't remember (inaudible). I know the guy -- I can't remember his name. They were pretty upset.
Everybody coming out was cops. There were a lot of cops coming out, all full of that white dust. There were a lot of people screaming, crying, hurt, a lot of cuts and bruises.
We stayed there for a while. I don't know how long.
Q:
That's near Canal Street on Broadway?
A:
Yeah, because I could see Canal up the block, and we were on Broadway.
I don't know the times, really. Now it's like a blur, like a million years ago.
We treated people as they needed to be treated, and we tried to help where we could. Somebody brought us water, a big jug of water. Just a lot of cops were coming up. I don't know what precinct they were from.
From then Janice said she's got to find a command center, so we started going toward the west side and went towards West Street.
Q:
Janice is the captain?
A:
Yeah.
Q:
Olszewski; right?
A:
Olszewski, right.
So we went up to West Street. On West Street, there was a lot of commotion. There was a lot of units. I saw firemen walking, a lot of firemen walking. They were walking up, all covered in soot. There were trucks going down. I couldn't tell you what the companies were.
I saw an EMS captain and an EMS chief. We went up to them, and we saw one of our medical directors. I saw units from Bellevue.
Q:
Do you know any of their names?
A:
The medic unit was Artie Gonzalez and Al Siegel. They're a medic unit from Bellevue. I saw Dr. Richmond. I saw him. I saw Chief Mittleman and Captain -- I can't think of his name.
Q:
Where did you see them?
A:
West Street at West Street.
Q:
West Street and --
A:
West Street and -- I have no idea. West Street. It was below Chelsea Piers, way below Chelsea Piers.
Q:
Was it south of Canal, do you think?
A:
It was south of Canal.
Q:
On West south of Canal?
A:
Yeah. But I don't know names.
Q:
How close to the site?
A:
All I could see is a lot of smoke, so I really don't know how close I was to the site. Maybe Barclay Street? Maybe that far down, Barclay Street?
Q:
Did they tell you they were coming from the site?
A:
No, they didn't say that. We just went up to the chief and told them that Janice was under the building when the plane hit REDACTED. Then he said, "Well," to the captain, REDACTED We couldn't get out of the city, so we ended up at NYU REDACTED
Q.
REDACTED?
A:
Yeah.
REDACTED We saw a couple of cops in the hospital. Actually, we saw a lot of cops with injuries in the hospital, minor, not serious.
We went to Bellevue to gas up, and as we're gassing up we hear that loud rumble again. The three of us knew already to hide under the ambulance or go into the garage, because we didn't know what it was. We thought another building was going to come down or another jet was coming. But the fighter jets were flying over Manhattan. We're like, are they ours?
After that we went back. We had seen Dr. Richmond, and Dr. Richmond said, "Come back here." We ended up here. We went back to Chelsea Piers, and we ended up in Chelsea Piers.
We were trying to find Dr. Richmond. We didn't see him right away, but we saw a lot of ambulances.
The people I saw I know from Manhattan. Most of the people I know were Manhattan ambulances. I didn't see any fire trucks. Police cars, I just saw police cars blocking the entrance going down that way towards the Piers.
While we were at the pier, they were setting up the hospital. We were in there for a while. Then we finally caught up with Dr. Richmond. He said to help out with the volunteers. There were a lot of volunteers coming up that wanted to help.
So we set up with the medical volunteers and tried to set them up and tried to get their names down and see if they could come, they could stay. We didn't know what the situation was.
Around I think it was maybe 4 or 5:00, one of the cops said that the buildings were collapsing still and there were people still in need. They were pulling out anybody from the area. So we just told the docs to hang out, the volunteers to hang out and wait and see what happens.
We just helped set up blood donations. People wanted to come and donate blood. People wanted to come and help and do anything they could. So we just helped set that up a little bit.
Q:
Did you treat anybody?
A:
Not there, not at the Chelsea Piers we didn't treat anybody. Later at night, maybe 11:00, we had like a bus load of cops that came in from ground zero. They were treated in the hospital. Maybe about 10, 15. Then after that we started getting a couple bus loads. We saw some firefighters come in. I don't know where they were from. It seemed like everybody was from all over the place.
I stayed there until about 1:00 and then hitched a ride with an ambulance. I was going back to the academy, and then I went home.
That's pretty much it. I really didn't see any firemen. I saw fire trucks. I remember seeing fire trucks coming down that way from West Street to Chelsea Piers.
Q:
Any other recollections, things that you may have observed that were odd or unusual or just things that you recall that you can tell us about?
A:
Unusual in what sense? The whole day was unusual. I don't know.
The things that stick out in my mind is the fire in the towers when we were going down. In my car, we were going down towards the station, and we could see the fire in the towers. The cloud of smoke coming towards us.
Just standing at Chelsea Piers and not seeing the towers. A lot of police, a lot of Secret Service, a lot of ambulances. People from every voluntary hospital that you could think of was down there, from all over. Fire trucks from volunteer fire departments were down there, ones that I know, from all over, as well as from God knows where, towns I never heard of before. A lot of people coming down. If you needed water, you asked for water, they gave you water. You ask for a bottle of water, and you got a jug of water.
MR. McALLISTER:
I'm going to conclude the interview. It is now 1306 hours, and we are going to conclude the interview. Thank you.
File No. 9110008: ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GREGORY
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 3, 2001
Transcribed by: Nancy Francis
S. GREGORY
MR. McALLISTER:
This is Kevin McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. It's October 3rd, 2001, 1540 hours. I'm with Jim Drury from the Bureau of Investigations and Trials and with Commissioner Stephen Gregory of the Bureau of Communications. We're in Commissioner Gregory's office and we are now commencing the interview.
COMMISSIONER GREGORY:
On Tuesday, September 11th, I was sitting in my office, it was just shortly before 9:00 o'clock, having a cup of coffee, and I heard on the scanner in my office on the PD SOD frequency police units frantically screaming about a plane that had just crashed into the World Trade Center. At first I didn't realize what had happened and then it dawned on me. I immediately got up and left my office, went around the corner.
At that point in time I saw Chief Ganci, Chief Nigro, a couple of the other chiefs coming out of their office talking about a plane that had struck the World Trade Center. At that time I had no idea what type of plane. I assumed, and it was only an assumption on my part, that it was a small plane that had strayed and winded into the Trade Center.
I proceeded back to my office. I gathered up my driver and I took two EMS captains with me because I figured a situation like this would probably need medical assistance at the scene. We proceeded to my vehicle.
We left headquarters, went over the Brooklyn Bridge, around by City Hall. We went down I believe it was Barclay Street, all the way down to West Street, made a left turn. As we were going over the bridge, we could visually see the upper floors of the World Trade Center with emanating heavy smoke and fire, at least 1 World Trade Center I should say.
When we got to West Street, we made a left turn and we went back down I believe it's one block to Vesey Street. At that point in time the driver stopped the car and debris was falling from the building. I told him to turn the car around and to park it on the other side of West Street, which we did. We went on the west side of West Street, up a slight incline, which I think is Vesey Street, parked the car, proceeded to put on my turnout coat, my helmet, and we walked back down to West Street.
At that point in time I proceeded with Captain Frank D'Amato from Emergency Medical Dispatch. We started to walk down West Street. Probably 25 to 50 feet into our walk we encountered several what appeared to be bodies or human remains in the street. We proceeded past that and headed down looking up at the building. There was a lot of debris falling down. There was very heavy fire on the upper floors of the building. We worked our way down going south on West Street to ultimately arriving close to Liberty Street, where I encountered Assistant Chief Jerry Barbara.
I spoke with Chief Barbara and he informed me that he was the incident commander of 2 World Trade Center and he asked me if I would give him a hand running the command board. I indicated that I would, at which point in time we stopped at Liberty Street. Jerry was sizing the building up. I proceeded to get on the radio.
I called the Manhattan Central Office on the radio. I asked them to give me the rundown of units that were assigned to 2 World Trade Center. The Manhattan dispatcher came back giving me the rundown, I jotted all the companies down, and we proceeded to wait. After a few minutes we weren't receiving any companies. Chief Barbara asked again where are the companies? It appeared that the companies that were responding were coming from north to south and that they were being all grabbed at 1 World Trade Center, the furthermost north building.
I suggested to Chief Barbara at that time that we possibly transmit a second alarm for a tunnel box and bring Brooklyn companies through the tunnel. He agreed with my recommendation and I requested a second alarm assignment to be brought in from Brooklyn through the Battery Tunnel. The companies in a short period of time started to arrive. I went out into the street. I flagged the companies down. We started to have them come in and report in to our command post.
At that point in time Chief Art Lakiotes showed up. At that point Chief Barbara, Chief Lakiotes, Chief Barbara's aide, Gary, I don't know Gary's last name, and myself were at the command board. The command board was roughly on the corner of Liberty and West Street, but then at that point in time, looking at the building, we observed people jumping from the building, we observed debris falling from both buildings. This is after, naturally, the second plane had hit 2 World Trade Center, which happened while we were there. We observed people jumping.
So Chief Barbara suggested that we move further south. He said let's head down towards Albany Street. We actually went down somewhere between Liberty and Albany Street to a point that we were actually right in front of the World Financial Center, which is just a little bit south of Liberty Street and just south of that south bridge that goes across West Street. We set up the command post at that location. So we were between Liberty and Albany, about halfway down. We set up the command post there. The companies started to come in.
At that point in time Chief Barbara said that he was going to head into 2 World Trade Center. He told me that as soon as a battalion came in with an aide that I felt comfortable with I should tell Gary to meet him in the lobby. Chief Barbara turned, started walking towards 2 World Trade Center, looked up at the building, sized it up, and that's the last that I saw Chief Barbara.
My time estimation of how long he was gone before the building came down? I would venture to say it wasn't any more than maybe four minutes, five minutes, somewhere in there, but time was a little hard to figure out. But I would say it was somewhere around four to five minutes.
At that point in time we heard a rumble, we heard a noise, and then the building came down. All we saw was dust and everything just started to get very chaotic. At that point in time all of us at the command post, firefighters, chiefs, myself, we turned around, we started to run south, down West Street towards Albany. Looking back over my shoulder, I realized that I wasn't able to outrun whatever was coming because it looked like a giant wave behind us, so I went up against a chain-link fence, I got down on one knee, I put my hands over my head to hold my helmet on so I wouldn't get hit in the head with anything, and we just proceeded to get clobbered with all kinds of debris.
It got very black. It got very quiet. It was very peacefully quiet; so peaceful that I thought I was dead.
Q:
Were you on the west side of the street or the east side?
A:
I was on the west side of West Street up against a fence in front of the World Financial Center. There's like a chain-link fence. It's about a six-foot fence that separates their property from -- actually, right over here. This is exactly where we were, right here.
Q:
He's denoting a space in front of 1 World Financial Center, which on our map is denoted as the home of Dow Jones.
A:
Originally we were right here. This was the number one location that we were at. We wound up to be at number two location over here, number one location being immediately south of the south bridge across the West Side Highway, number two being the location in front of 1 World Financial Center.
The air got very thick, very dirty. It was very difficult to breathe. I was choking. I proceeded to at some point in time -- again, I lost track of time -- to give an urgent or a Mayday message on the radio, which I subsequently listened to myself and I have a cassette of that, indicating that something had happened. I asked a dispatcher if they were aware of it because during the time that it got very black and very quiet, my radio cut out completely. Apparently the dust in the air cut the radio signal out. The radio just hummed for maybe about 30 seconds and then it came back on again.
At that point in time I called Manhattan. I was answered. I asked them if they were aware of an explosion at the World Trade Center. I told them basically what I thought had happened and they came back and they answered me, and then subsequent to that I gave them a radio transmission indicating a major collapse of the World Trade Center. There were some conversations going back and forth.
At that point in time the atmosphere started to clear slightly. It started to lift. It went from total blackness to gray. I could now see vehicles, I could see lights on vehicles, I could see some people moving around, I could see some people laying in the street, laying on the sidewalk. I got up. I was with another firefighter. I have no idea who it was. We went around. We had picked some people up, people who were bleeding. We tried to administer to them whatever we could, but everybody was covered with this white powdery substance.
We found a firefighter that was injured and we took him down further south on West Street to Albany and we went up Albany Street. We went west on Albany Street towards the water. At that point in time we took the firefighter into a garage. There's a parking garage, a little street on the south side of Albany just a little bit west of West Street. It's a parking garage that has something to do with the building. We took the firefighter in there. He had a groin injury and he was bleeding from the back of his head.
At that point in time Dr. Kelly appeared. She looked at the individual. She said we had to transport him, get him out of there. We had him on a back board. We picked him up and started taking him out when all of a sudden -- later on we found out that 1 Trade Center collapsed. So we went back inside, put him down, tried to secure him as best we could because the whole scenario started all over again. It got black, the dirt was flying, there was debris all over the place. We tried to stay out of the way because things were flying all over. How long we were in there? I don't know. A couple of minutes. It started to lift again.
We went over and administered again to the firefighter. Dr. Kelly was still there. We picked him up. We brought him outside. There was an ambulance outside, which we took. We put him in the back of the ambulance and we drove him down Albany Street to the water, where he was subsequently put on some type of police launch or something.
At that point in time I was at Albany Street and the Hudson River on I guess the promenade over there. There's a sidewalk promenade. I saw a fireboat. A marine company was out in the water. They were standing offshore. I flagged the marine company down. I told them to come in. They came in and they came up alongside the seawall.
I spoke to the pilot. I asked him where his officer was. He said he didn't have an officer; he didn't know where he was. I told the pilot to tie the boat up. He said do you want me to take people off? I said no, I want you to tie the boat up and I want you to stretch two lines from the boat onto Albany Street, because they had a water problem down at West Street. So I felt that, since there was nobody else around to do anything, stretching the lines would be the best thing.
At that point in time fire officers started to appear. They came up. They wanted to know what they could do. They had rigs with them. We wound up ultimately stretching two lines from the boat supplying pumpers. The pumpers also stretched lines to the West Side Highway where they supplied the manifold. After that we were basically tending to injured firefighters and injured civilians along the water. Subsequently, I worked my way back down to West Street.
After that, I don't know. Everything is a blur. Somehow I wound up on the other side of the bridge, which we couldn't get by. We had to go through a building to get around. I don't even know what building I went through, but somehow we got around and I wound up back up on Vesey and West or the other side of the incident, and then subsequently I wound up back up onto I guess Chambers, somewhere around Chambers where the command post was, and from there I worked my way east and we wound up at City Hall Park where I met up with one of my guys from the Field Com Unit.
When we left City Hall Park, we walked down I believe it was Barclay Street, Barclay and Church, I think. There's a church on the corner, right? Yes. St. Peter's Church.
As we were passing St. Peter's Church, the captain of Ladder 102 and the lieutenant from Ladder 102 were coming out of the church and they informed me that they had Father Judge's body inside the church. They had brought it from wherever they recovered it into St. Peter's Church.
At that point in time Tom McGonigle from the Field Com and myself went into the church. We went up to the altar. They had Father Judge on the altar. He was wrapped in sheets, some type of white sheeting, and they had him laying on the altar. We knelt down. We said a prayer.
We left the church at that point in time and proceeded down Barclay Street and again somehow worked our way around back to West and Vesey -- how I did that I have no idea -- where I met up with Father Delendick and another chaplain who I know him but I can't recall his name, and I informed them about Father Judge and where he was, and at that point in time they said they were going up to the church to see what they could do for him.
After that I just wandered around the site for a while, I really don't recall what I did, ultimately winding up in a McDonald's finding a telephone, and that's about it. I met Commissioner Fitzpatrick, Commissioner Drury, and Commissioner Fitzpatrick and I ultimately came back to headquarters to try and get things together back at headquarters since everybody else was at the site, and that's basically it in a nutshell.
Q:
Do you recall at any time, particularly when you were on West Street, any companies whose vehicles may have been parked near where you were?
A:
No. I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
Q:
Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A:
No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. I never met the man before in my life. He knew who I was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you... It was just a little strange.
Q:
On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an explosion up on the upper floors.
A:
I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. I don't know how far down this was already. I mean, we had heard the noise but, you know, I don't know.
Q:
You talk about your drivers. Who were they?
A:
EMS personnel. I had Sam Harris, who works up here, I had Captain Frank D'Amato and Captain Jason Pinkus. Four of us were in the car together. Captain Pinkus and Sam Harris went in one direction and Captain D'Amato and I went in the other direction. So, when the collapse happened, we didn't know where the other people were. We were sort of separated in the middle. And then ultimately I lost Captain D'Amato even in my section. I didn't know what happened to him. When it started to come down, I ran south and he ran sort of west into a building and that was the last we saw of each other.
Q:
What about Chief Artie Lakiotes; did you ever see him again?
A:
I saw Artie Lakiotes a couple of times after that. We were in the same area. I guess we ran in the same direction. I saw him after the collapse. We both went over and hugged each other and realized that we were both still there, and I saw Artie a couple of times after that.
Q:
Where did you last see Dr. Kelly?
A:
Dr. Kelly I saw last when we put that firefighter in the ambulance and after that I didn't see Dr. Kelly. I didn't know where she went.
Q:
And you mentioned a Tom McGonigle?
A:
Tom McGonigle was assigned to the Field Com Unit. I met him at City Hall. I think Tom was either coming in to support the Field Com Unit, he may have been coming in from home, but I met him on I guess that's Broadway that runs down from City Hall. I met him on Broadway and then Tom was with me for a while and then I think he went to the mobile command vehicle to work over there and I lost track of him after a while.
Q:
Where did you park the car initially when you arrived at the scene?
A:
Sam parked the car initially right here. This was spot number one. And the stuff was falling down and I said get the car out of here. We turned the car around and we parked the car over here.
Q:
Just for the record, you parked it on Vesey Street near West?
A:
Vesey --
Q:
West of west?
A:
Initially we parked it on the southeast corner of Vesey and West Street, ultimately moving it immediately to Vesey Street about two, three hundred feet west of West Street. My car was wiped out over there, too. All the windows were blown out and shrapnel and damage and everything. But that's where Sam parked the car, over here, and once we parked the car there, we came down here. I walked down West Street, I guess by the first tower, and then right about here we started to encounter people laying in the street, and then we continued on to here and I met Chief Barbara over here. We set up the initial command post over here, which is near Liberty.
Q:
Which is the south bridge?
A:
Right. And then we ultimately moved it in front of this World Financial Center building, No. 1, which is Dow Jones.
MR. McALLISTER:
1 World Financial Center.
Q:
Now, as you proceeded down West Street, did you see a Fire Department command post set up on West Street?
A:
No. I didn't see any command post. In fact, it was like a ghost street. There was nobody there. I didn't see anybody. That's the part that really it was like a ghost street. There was nobody there. I didn't see people. You know, I saw nobody coming out of the building. I guess, after a while, thinking about it, I assumed all the people went out through the promenade and came out this way, but I didn't see anybody here. I didn't see any people here. I saw parts of the plane laying here. I saw, again, bodies laying here, pieces of bodies, and then coming down here I met Chief Barbara, and then there were people down here, a lot of civilians down here.
MR. McALLISTER:
Again, referring to West Street in the proximity of World Trade 1?
COMMISSIONER GREGORY:
Yes, exactly.
Q:
Now, you mentioned Chief Barbara's driver or aide, Gary?
A:
Gary. I don't know Gary's last name.
Q:
Did you see him after the collapse?
A:
No, I didn't see Gary after the collapse. I spoke to Gary the other day. Gary came here to see me and Gary said that he was blown down, ultimately got up, and then somehow worked his way down, after helping some people, worked his way down, and then he wound up in a hospital somewhere, whether it be in Staten Island or Jersey or wherever, but he wound up in a hospital, I know that.
Q:
The airplane parts that you referred to, they were on West Street or on Vesey Street?
A:
I saw airplane parts on West Street.
Q:
How did you know they were airplane parts?
A:
It looked like pieces of a plane, skin of a plane. I mean, they weren't really discernible. I couldn't say this was this part of a plane or that was that part. Just knowing a plane had hit the building and I looked and I saw it looked like the skin off a wing or a fuselage or wherever it came from.
Q:
Clearly not building material?
A:
No. The building material was sort of gray and you could see it, you know, how it differed from the plane. I was listening to the tape this morning of the people calling up and they were describing the plane that hit the building. Actually, so many people saw it. They actually described the plane as it came in. They said it was a military-type plane and it was green and it was this. I mean, I never saw the color of the plane.
Q:
Where were you when the second plane hit?
A:
We were down at the command post between Liberty and Albany on the west side of West Street. And after the second plane hit, somebody said they heard rumors that a third plane was coming in. Where they got that from, I don't know. But somebody said the cops said there's a third plane coming in. We didn't know anything about that.
Q:
Did you see or hear the second plane before it hit the World Trade Center?
A:
I never actually saw the plane, but I heard it. You could hear it coming in and then we heard the explosion and you could hear the roar of the plane coming in. At first I didn't realize it was a plane. I thought it was like the roar of fire, like something had just incinerated, like a gas tank or an oil tank. It sounded like a tremendous roar and then you heard boom and then there was a big fire, a lot of fire, a big fireball. I never actually saw a plane hit the building. I never saw that. I saw it on television, but I never saw it while I was standing there.
Q:
I guess just one follow-up. You said West Street was empty. Empty as far as people being on the street or was there fire apparatus parked there?
A:
There was fire apparatus parked there. But I guess I had expected to see like droves of people evacuating the building and we would have to get the people out of there, but there were no people. When I say no people, I mean relatively no people. There were a few stragglers here and there, but other than that, there was no volume of people. Again, later on, in looking and thinking about it, I would have assumed everybody probably went out through the promenade onto the Church Street side of the building. But I was surprised that there weren't more people in the street over there.
I never did see Commissioner Feehan. I never saw Chief Ganci. I never saw Chief Burns. The only person I really came in contact with was Jerry Barbara. And I never saw a command post because maybe at that time they may have been inside 1 World Trade Center when we passed by and then maybe when we passed by they came outside. But I never saw them. They were probably in the building. So I can't actually say that I ever saw anybody. I mean, I saw chauffeurs hooking pumpers up and stuff like that, but I never really saw any of those individuals.
That's unusual because usually -- and, again, I still to this day don't know why I went down to No. 2. I mean, normally, in the normal course of operation, I would go to the command post, wherever Commissioner Feehan was with Ganci. For whatever reason, that day, I'm still racking my brain why I did it, I just walked right past the building and went down, further down, all the way to the other side. Why did I do it? I don't know. No idea.
MR. McALLISTER:
Any follow-ups?
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY:
No. But I would just ask the Commissioner to put his name on the map and we'll add it as an exhibit to our file. So let the record reflect he's doing that now. Today's date is October 3rd, 2001.
MR. McALLISTER:
And just before we conclude, we'll offer the Commissioner an opportunity to give us any further recollections or observations before we conclude the interview, if he has any.
COMMISSIONER GREGORY:
REDACTED
MR. McALLISTER:
Thank you, Commissioner.
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY:
Thanks, Commissioner.
MR. McALLISTER:
It is now 1610 hours, October 3rd, 2001, and we're going to conclude the interview. Thank you.
File No. 9110009: LIEUTENANT MURRAY MURAD
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 3, 2001
Transcribed by: Laurie A. Collins
M. MURAD
MR. CAMPBELL:
Today is October 4th at 10:30 in the morning. We're in conference room 4E21 at headquarters. My name is Patrick Campbell, Fire Marshal, here to conduct an interview with Murray Murad about the occurrence of September 11th.
Also present in the room is --
MR. STARACE:
Michael Starace, Fire Marshal.
LIEUTENANT MURAD:
Murray Murad, Lieutenant Investigator with Bureau of Investigations and Trials.
Q:
Okay, Murray, we're just coming here and trying to do a fact-finding mission of what you saw on September 11th in the morning of the plane crash and the incident that happened at the World Trade Center. Just tell us what you saw and did that day.
A:
Well, I was conducting business down on Greenwich and Liberty at Engine 10, Truck 10, on that day. I happened to walk through the quarters around 8:35 and I asked to speak to the officer in charge of the truck -- I think that was Captain Mallery; I think it's M-A-L-L-E-R-Y -- I needed to speak to one of the firemen. It so happens who I was looking for, the firefighter was there.
So we went upstairs and we started to prepare the paperwork. I was conducting a confidential investigation at the fire house. It was about 8:41 that we heard a plane hovering over the fire house. It sounded like the plane was right on top of us. At that time the captain was upstairs. He was taking a shower in the office and I was conducting the work with the firefighter.
The captain came out and said: "What's going on? This is a no-fly zone. There should be no planes over here unless this is a military plane, a plane in trouble." Other than that, there was really no clue.
So about two or three minutes after hearing it, you heard something like revving. We took a look, and, boom, then the north tower is hit. So what happened was everyone left the house except for the captain, because he already had his relief. What I'm assuming is that he's going to man the house. His relief was there.
They all took off. The engine and the truck took off. I guess they both were responding to a pre-arranged staging location when the World Trade Center is involved in some kind of major incident. And they all took off.
So what happened was people were running out of the building. We got a couple of injuries. We were treating them.
Q:
Out of the building, out of the Trade Center?
A:
Out of the Trade Center, yeah. I don't know which Trade Center building they came out of, but it was either the north or the south building.
It was very minimal, like five, six patients. They came with very, very minor injuries. There was a police officer in the fire house. I asked him: Listen, can you get an ambulance here, we have a couple minor injuries. We need an ambulance at the staging location here.
The ambulance comes in. The first EMT that walks in, he sprained his ankle. So he was not much of a help, but he tried to get these people as comfortable as possible.
Let me go back. Let me go back one second before this. After the first plane hit, we went downstairs after everyone took off. I was there downstairs for maybe seven, eight minutes.
I went back upstairs because I wanted to get something out of my bag. Maybe about 10 to 12-minutes after that first plane, I heard another plane. Then I said to myself, we're being attacked.
I ran downstairs. No sooner did I run downstairs and look up, that I saw the second plane strike the south tower. It was such a vicious hit and such a precision hit, it was unbelievable.
Still we didn't have that many more people coming into the fire house, just regular civilians hanging around. They were looking at everything else like that. So pretty much everything was pretty much stabilized in the fire house. The captain was still the only one there.
At that point there were two fire marshals that came to the house. They wanted to borrow some equipment. I can't identify who they were. I forget what they looked like. They got some gear from the house and then they took off. So I only saw them for a second. I only determined they were fire marshals because they had their jackets on.
So at this point what I did was I went around the corner to Liberty and Greenwich to tell the people listen, just keep walking, just keep walking as far as you can, just stay away from the buildings.
I got to the American Stock Exchange building. A guy came out and asked me what do you think we should do? I said listen, if it was me, I tell you in one word, R-U-N, run, just leave. Oh, we have a protocol, for this and that. Listen, you've got to get your people to safety. I don't think being in the building is that safe. But this is the American Stock Exchange. I said listen, you do what you have to do. We have a couple of retired cops on the job here. So one of them called me over. I told him the same story. I said listen, you guys need to get out of here, just for safety reasons. Again, he told me that they have their protocol that they do.
So I continued on my little excursion here trying to get people out of the stores, out of the buildings. I went to all of the shops right behind the fire house. I said listen, just leave your building, just leave.
Q:
This is on Greenwich Street?
A:
Yeah, right on Greenwich and Liberty, right behind the fire house, right on -- is it Cider or Cedar?
Q:
Cedar?
A:
Cedar. They have all the little coffee shops there, bagel stores, gourmet shops there with all the foods. I told them just leave, just -- don't even close your business, just walk out and leave. They're telling me they're okay, they're okay. Now it's getting a little frustrating because I said listen, you should really leave. Don't lock your door, but let your employees go. That didn't seem to work.
So I went back into the fire house to see what I could do. The EMS unit was trying to treat a couple of people. We had a guy with a broken leg, possibly, and maybe one patient with second-degree burns but nothing life-threatening. All the injuries in the fire house were minor. There were really no life-threatening injuries.
So in a matter of 15, 20 minutes, the captain yelled out and you heard this roar. All he said was run to the back, it's coming down. And we all started running to the back of the fire house.
I know the design of Engine 10, Truck 10. It's on the corner, pretty wide. Then as you go into the house it narrows into the hallway. It has a phone. It has a TV room. Then it has a bathroom and a kitchen, which I totally forgot about, the kitchen during the collapse.
Everyone's running down to the basement or upstairs. One of the firefighters, who must have come in when they were calling all these guys in, I don't know who they were, said go upstairs, go upstairs. A lot of people didn't want to go upstairs because they were afraid. The building is coming down upstairs.
So as we were running, we were picking up the injured people. They would fall, we would stop, two people pick them up.
Q:
Still in the house?
A:
Still in the house. Then it came down. From the implosion, we all got thrown and all that stuff came in the house, all that debris, all that concrete and all that fiberglass. Name it, it was in there. It was incredible. Then it started getting dark, darker. You couldn't even see in front of you.
Q:
Inside?
A:
Inside the fire house. You couldn't even see. I couldn't even see in front of my face. Then it became very, very black. We were trying to get out the door. The back entrance was blocked with all the rubble. Somehow they were able to get the door open. Again, I think most of us forgot about the kitchen. We were all trying to go out through the back. So everyone I think got out.
So what happened was I got out and I went to see what was going on. It was a nightmare. Cars were tossed. I mean, all that stuff was in the air, on the street.
So I walked up to Trinity Place. It just so happens I needed a mask, you know. I happened to see Matty James who was in a Jeep. I said Matty, you got a mask? He said: "I have a couple of Scott packs." I didn't want to take one because they had a couple of fire trucks that were hanging out right in front of him. I don't know what fire trucks they were, but they looked kind of beaten up from the explosion.
Q:
This was on where?
A:
On Trinity Place.
Q:
On Trinity?
A:
And Cedar.
Q:
Cedar.
A:
Right, right up there.
Q:
They were parked there, and they were smashed?
A:
I don't know if they were really smashed, but there was a lot of debris on them. I only saw one or two. I can't really identify them because there was so much debris in the air and on the ground. The pictures that you see, that's what was going on.
So he said to me: "Hop in my car, I'll give you a ride, because there's a cop, he's giving out masks on the corner." Meanwhile, I can't see, my eyes are so red and irritated and I'm coughing up all the soot and everything. So I got a mask from the cop.
Then there was like a little cappuccino store right there. I knocked on the door and was let in. Listen, can I use your facilities here? He said oh, yeah, come on in, wash up. I just wanted to wash my face and get all that stuff out of my eyes. He said hey, have some water. He gave me a bottle of water. I was there about 15 minutes. Then I started walking out.
I walked about two, three minutes, and all of a sudden I heard a plane. Now, I'm like the only one walking on this block. I said oh, my God, we're being attacked again. Someone said it could have been a B15, a U.S. plane up in the air. Actually, what I think it was, was simultaneously the plane and the north tower coming down. So that's what the sounds were. I heard that rumble.
So I started going back to the area where Liberty Street was. I went up to Liberty Street. Everything's destroyed, everything, all the buildings around it. The only thing standing was the fire house.
I re-entered the fire house. I spotted a chief. I think it was Philip Burns only because someone called his name. A couple of firemen were in there. There was Firefighter Peter D'Ancona. He was there. He was assigned there. I saw him. He was looking for gear. There was no gear to be found for these guys, no turn-out coats, no nothing. Everything was gone.
Guys were coming in. A couple of companies were coming in just trying to assist. It was still dark out.
What happened was everybody got out of the house safely. I asked the captain where is everybody? He said everyone's out, everyone's fine, everyone's good. There was nothing else to do. Then I spotted the two EMTs that were assigned to the location. I said listen, I have a car --
Q:
Do you remember their names?
A:
No, I don't. The ambulance was destroyed in the collapse. I don't know if it was totaled, but there was a lot of damage to the vehicle.
Q:
Where was that vehicle?
A:
It was parked right inside the 10 and 10 house.
Q:
On the side?
A:
Right inside.
Q:
Oh, inside?
A:
Inside, right. They backed it up. I don't know if they were going to do triage or going to transport.
Q:
How did the ambulance get damaged?
A:
All the debris from the collapse of --
Q:
So it was outside?
A:
It was inside. From the implosion, everything just came inside.
Q:
The doors were open?
A:
The doors were open.
Q:
Oh, the doors were open?
A:
Yeah. They should have been closed, but I don't think -- no one expected within an hour the collapse. It was an awful thing.
Q:
Where did you park?
A:
I parked down on Greenwich between -- I think it's Carlisle and Rector. That's where I was parked.
Q:
So you were down a little further?
A:
Yeah. Because what happened was when I got to the house it was almost changing shifts and I didn't want to take a parking spot up, because they double park there and everywhere right around the corner. It was still early. I said you know what, let me just park up further. I found a spot, I pulled the car in, and then I just walked up to the fire house.
Q:
You never made it to the towers? You never went near the towers?
A:
No, that was just from my location of being right at 10 and 10. That was the closest I was.
Q:
Philip Burns was in there during that whole time?
A:
I only saw him when I came back after the second tower collapsed. I'm only saying it was Philip Burns because someone said that was Chief Burns.
Q:
That was after the second?
A:
After the second collapse.
Q:
When the first one was hit, you were outside?
A:
No, I was almost in front of the house at the front doors. The doors were open.
Q:
Which is actually right across the street?
A:
Right across the street. It was on Liberty and Greenwich.
Q:
You looked up and you saw the --
A:
I didn't look up. What happened was the captain just -- we heard a roar, and he just yelled out it's coming down, just run to the back of the fire house.
Q:
Oh, no, when it hit -- did you see it -- were you outside when it hit?
A:
No.
Q:
You were inside?
A:
Yeah. We just heard all the rumble and all -- the collapse.
Q:
I'm saying you were in the house when the first plane hit?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Did you go out at all right after it?
A:
When the first plane hit? I did. I went outside.
Q:
What did you see then?
A:
I just saw the fire -- the smoke coming out from the top from the north tower.
Q:
Was there any debris?
A:
Not at that time.
Q:
No debris at all?
A:
No. Stuff was coming down, but nothing real major. After the second plane hit even more stuff came down.
Q:
I'm sorry, when the second plane hit.
A:
When the second plane hit, it was just a lot of fire, a lot of black smoke.
Q:
Coming out?
A:
Right. What happened was that we looked up and then within a couple of minutes one guy jumped -- an individual came out. It wasn't like a jump, because they came out backwards. Evidently from the explosion up on those floors they got blown out. Someone else came down and they were coming out. I only saw two people come out.
Now we had more people congregating in the fire house. We would just evaluate them, if they were injured. No, we're not injured. We need a phone.
Of course the cell phones were not working. The only cell phone that worked I think was Nextel. It's a two-way portable radio, practically, and you can have contact. You don't even have to worry about dialing. That's the only phones that were working.
Everyone's cell phones were just not working. My cell phone was dead. The beepers were dead. Everything in the fire house was dead. There was no communication whatsoever. So we just relied on whatever information we were able to get, which was actually really nothing.
Q:
Were there a lot of plane parts or anything when the second one hit?
A:
Not that I saw, no.
Q:
You said there were firemen around you. Did you hear any transmissions going on?
A:
No. It was all verbal among the firemen just discussing. The radio communication was fairly -- I didn't hear anything.
MR. CAMPBELL:
Do you have anything else, Mike?
Q:
Anybody else you actually recognized?
A:
I recognized the captain. I recognized one of the firefighters. I recognized a lieutenant that was from BHS. I don't know his last name. His first name is John. He was good friends with Geoff Guja. Actually they went down together. Geoff unfortunately didn't make it.
Q:
You don't remember the fireman's name?
A:
No, that was with him? I don't remember.
Q:
Captain Mallery, he stayed in the fire house the whole time?
A:
I believe so.
Q:
Anything else? Is there anything else you want to add? You can say anything about how you felt or whatever.
A:
It was something that if you were there, to describe it, it was horrible. It was a horrific act against us. It was something that you would never, ever think would ever, ever happen to this country.
When those towers came down, it was like a sign of something. When all these people -- I mean, war is war. They talk about Pearl Harbor. Bottom line is Pearl Harbor was a military base, installation. It was peace time. But here what happened was we got two planes, our own planes, going into two towers and killing almost 5,000 people. It was just an awful day. It was a day I'll never forget, just the sounds of everything and the planes hitting. The awful sound of hearing that plane over the fire house. It was like it was sitting right on top of the fire house. That's how close it was. And then revving up the engine and then hitting the north tower.
Q:
You had said earlier people in the fire house were alarmed when they heard the plane. They felt something was wrong?
A:
Oh, yeah.
Q:
Before it even --
A:
I was upstairs. There was only the captain and the firefighter. It was George Bachmann who was up there with me. George Bachmann was in Vietnam -- served in Vietnam. So he knows certain sounds. Like we said, this is a no-fly zone here. What's a plane doing here?
So as soon as that plane hit, they all took off. The only one left was the captain at the time. Anybody else coming back, coming into the house was either called in or off-duty guys coming in, grabbing equipment. I saw the two fire marshals. They were grabbing equipment. They asked the captain: "We need some gear."
But again, no one ever expected it to collapse like that. Just thankfully a pancake rather than toppling over. That would have been a nightmare. But in an hour the intensity of that heat must have been incredible.
Q:
Did any of the guys from 10 and 10 come back after --
A:
They were out. I understand that a lot of them didn't come back.
Q:
So none of them came back after, while you were around?
A:
No, no. They, I think, just went to the location where they were supposed to go and whatever assignment they were given. The problem was when the south tower went down, I guess there was no communication and people just went into the north tower. That's what they were saying. When the south tower came down, that was where the communication was. While the north tower is still up, burning, guys were just told go into the building. There was no radio communication. That's what --
Q:
You were by the south tower?
A:
Right.
Q:
After that got hit, were there any firefighters going into Two World Trade from Liberty Street or anything?
A:
No, they just -- everyone just got in and they went to --
Q:
No, I'm saying when the second one hit when they were responding when they made the other alarm for the second tower.
A:
Right.
Q:
Units were assigned to the second tower or the south tower. Did you see any of them go in?
A:
No, no. Actually, I didn't see any units from where I was. They must have all gone to Vesey or they were parked on Church right up on the street. I saw some fire apparatus up on, I think it was, Church or Trinity or right up there on Liberty Street.
Q:
Did you see any numbers or anything?
A:
No.
MR. CAMPBELL:
All right. This concludes the interview. It's 10:52. Thank you very much.
File No. 9110010: PARAMEDIC TRACEY MULQUEEN
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 4, 2001
Transcribed by: Laurie A. Collins
T. MULQUEEN
MR. McALLISTER:
This is Kevin McAllister from the Bureau of Administration. It's October 4th, 2001. We're at Fire Department headquarters in 8E13, and we're about to begin an interview with Tracey Mulqueen, who's a paramedic assigned to the office of medical affairs. I'm joined by --
MR. CASTORINA:
Ron Castorina, Bureau of Investigations and Trials.
MR. TAMBASCO:
Mike Tambasco, Bureau of Investigations and Trials.
MR. McALLISTER:
Tracey Mulqueen as well.
Q:
We're just going to draw your attention to September the 11th and ask you for your recollections about the events of that day.
A:
I guess to start with, the first time I started hearing -- I was actually in the pantry making breakfast. I started to hear people screaming. The first thought was that there was a bird in reception, like a bird had flown in or something. I don't know where that came from. I went out to see what was going on,
T. MULQUEEN
and I went to the eighth floor reception and I could see the flames and the smoke coming out of the first tower in the Trade Center. It was surreal. It's like you're seeing it but you're not really processing it.
I was watching for a few minutes, and the second plane came in. Basically the next thing I remember after that was we had all of our office's medical equipment on a chair and we were running out the building.
They had somehow worked out for us to get an ambulance at one of the battalions in Brooklyn. So we ran to somebody's personal car, because we didn't even try to get a pool car. We figured all the pool cars were probably gone at that point, which I wouldn't be surprised if they were.
So we're driving through Brooklyn, and three of us -- it was myself, James Murphy, who's another paramedic, and Dulce McCorvey, who is an EMT in the office. So we go into her personal car with all the equipment, and we're driving and we're hoping we don't get lost.
Again, we're in a personal vehicle. I'm basically stopping at the red lights. I'm jumping out of the car, stopping traffic so we can drive through, because we just needed to get there. I probably shouldn't be telling this to the BITS people, but anyway.
Q:
We've heard this story before.
A:
I know.
Just trying to stop. People looked at us like what's going on. I guess people didn't know yet. We were listening to the radio, the regular AM radio -- I forget what station it was -- and starting to hear the reports about what's going on.
So we get an ambulance, we throw our stuff in it, and we start heading over to Manhattan. We were driving and we come over -- I think we came over the Manhattan Bridge and went around City Hall. We were driving down Broadway, and there was no AM/FM radio in the ambulance, so we had no idea what was going on at this point.
Q:
What were you able to observe as you came over the bridge and after you entered Manhattan?
A:
Just there was a lot of cops. There was a lot of activity. I really wasn't seeing people, like the hordes of people like you see on the news. I think we were more concerned about going the right way and not getting lost. I was in the passenger seat of the ambulance, so I was kind of copiloting at that point.
We started to come down Broadway, and we could start to see people coming up at us, just all types of pedestrians, walking only in one direction. Like I said, we didn't have a radio in our ambulance, and nothing had come over the regular FD radio. So we didn't even know the first tower had collapsed at that point, and we were driving straight in. We had no clue.
One of the captains from operations, Janice Olszewski, if she hadn't stopped us, we probably would have been right underneath the tower when it came down. We had no idea what was going on.
We were coming down Broadway, and I'm not sure exactly where we ended up but I believe we were probably at Broadway and Vesey. We were probably right about here. She had flagged us down. We got out of the ambulance. We started talking to her. You could see that she had that look in her eye. She told us that the tower had come down.
Literally within like maybe a minute or two of being on the scene, you could start to hear the rumble again. Everybody just said, "Get out of here!" Everybody just took off running.
Q:
That was the rumble from the second tower?
A:
It was, definitely, because you could start to see the dust cloud was starting to come at us and everything. We were running up Broadway, and I don't know how he did this, because all I thought was just get the hell out of here. I had Captain Olszewski in my sight, and I had Dulce McCorvey in my sight, and we were together. I had no idea where Jimmy Murphy went.
The next thing you know, the ambulance comes up Broadway. "Get in!" Cool. So we all jumped in, and we just all sat in the back. You could see the dust clouds coming at us and going down the side streets.
Q:
You were moving, you were driving?
A:
Oh, yeah. So we actually beat out that cloud, because there's no way you could have driven through that. We were driving, and we stopped at one point and we looked and saw that we were outside the federal building. We ain't stopping here. So we went a few more blocks up.
I remember Janice Olszewski just sitting there screaming, "Keep going. We're not far enough. We're not far enough. Just keep going." We just were all sitting in the back of the ambulance, what the hell just happened. I don't think it really even sunk in.
We knew something had happened. I don't think we realized like the whole thing had come down, because we didn't even know -- she had said that something had collapsed, there was some kind of explosion, I don't know. We just got out, we stopped, and all of a sudden people just started coming out, all covered in the ash.
Q:
Where did you stop?
A:
I know we were outside of 385 Broadway at one point, because there was a lingerie shop there and the guy was so nice. He let us come in, let us use the bathroom, let us use the phones. I know the deli next had asked people for quarters to use the phones, which I could not believe. This guy was like, "Whatever you need. What can I do?" He was just amazing. I'm going to make a point to go back there and thank him, because he was absolutely wonderful.
I think we all sat down on the back of the bumper. We were trying to get dust masks, and we gave out all of our masks within a couple of minutes, because everybody was coming up. You could smell it. It's not a regular smoke smell. It's acrid concrete, whatever. We gave out dust masks.
Then within I guess a couple minutes, people started coming out, making their way out of that cloud. There were some injuries. A lot of just completely petrified, shell-shocked -- I guess when you see pictures of people from other parts of the world after bombings and stuff, that shell-shocked look.
When you see people in New York in business suits coming out covered in ash, looking like that, the whole thing -- surreal is definitely the only word that describes a lot of what went on that day, and afterwards too.
I know after a few minutes some guy came up, and he must have just run to the first deli he could find and bought all the water he could fit in his backpack and just came by and just started giving out water to people, which was -- I guess that was the beginning of people coming together and trying to do the right thing. People came by and bought sandwiches in a store and just tried to give us stuff. Somebody finally came by and was giving out like bottles of water, like the five-gallon ones.
Actually, this is interesting, just to go back. When we were driving up Broadway before we actually got there, there was a sheriff's car, and my husband is a deputy sheriff in the New York City sheriff's office. As we were driving by, I yelled at them, "Tell Paul Mulqueen that his wife is here."
Because afterwards, maybe about half an hour, all I could think of is I know my husband works in Manhattan, I know he was there. I'm trying to focus on what I need to do, and people coming up cut and having trouble breathing. We had a few different oxygen bags and regulators and stuff. You go into autopilot and you try to do what you have to do, and all I could think about was where's Paul, where's Paul. Nobody could get through on the cell phones.
I guess probably about 12-ish I saw another sheriff, and I said, "Could you please just try and raise him on the radio." He called him. Finally all I heard back, "What?" I thought, okay, he's okay, which I thought was very funny. The guy was like, "Lord, there was a family member looking for you." You could hear like the relief in his voice, and he was like, "Okay." But it was like "What?"
I found out later he was helping to evacuate the fire. There was a picture. He was in like Time magazine and Newsweek magazine evacuating some of the victims out. I understand where that "what" came from at that point, but it was the happiest word I heard.
I don't know how long we were there, but we were there for a while trying to just catch people as they were coming out, people were being carried out, limping up. Everybody was pretty banged up, although not as banged up as I expected. I think a lot of us really expected worse injuries. It seemed like people were mostly either walking wounded or they didn't get out. It's unfortunate.
Q:
What street were you getting these injuries at?
A:
We were still in front of 385 Broadway.
Q:
On Broadway?
A:
Yeah, which I think is just south of Canal Street.
It's funny, because the whole time too you don't realize how often you use the twin towers as your reference point, because for the next couple days I would look and I had no idea where I was. I would go to look up to see where the towers were. I guess that's something I'll have to get used to, but it was very strange.
I know once --
Q:
Were there other units there at that time?
A:
There was one other ambulance there. I think it was from the academy, because I know like Marlena Coffey was there and Jenna, she's from the academy. She was with a couple of other people and some other EMTs that were closer that didn't get out of the cloud had come up. I know one guy's name was Kevin. He was covered in ash.
I think after once we kind of got control of the scene there, everybody was just to the phone to try and call people, to just let them know that we're okay. I know when I got in touch with my aunt, she was hysterical, which started me off, the last thing you want.
We were told to 85 with one of the deputy medical directors, so we met up with him at wherever that first treatment sector was on the West Side Highway there. There was all the ambulances, and all other people started coming in. I saw ambulances from New Jersey. My friend lives on North Shore. This funky big ambulance thing. I never saw a truck like it.
We met up with Dr. Richmond, which apparently he and Commissioner Clair and Dario Gonzalez, the two physicians and the commissioner, were flown in from the state police from Albany, which was good.
At that point Captain Olszewski was who we kept with. REDACTED
I remember what struck me most is when we were on the east side and stuck in all that traffic, people were just going about their day. People were sitting at cafes eating. I know life goes on and stuff, but to see people -- it was almost like how could you just be going about your business? Don't you know what just happened?
REDACTED
I saw her I don't know when, a couple days later. I had slept here a couple nights, and I ran into her one night. It was good to see people. I never hugged so many people that I worked with in the space of a couple of days, ever.
From the hospital we went to Bellevue to restock, because our bus was trashed. They had everything set up outside for restock. We had no oxygen, we had no masks, we had no water left for doing people's eyes and stuff. We were flushing them out. We had no gas. It was like everything you could run out of, we ran out of.
We were standing at Bellevue. All of a sudden we hear this rumble of like a plane really low, and I started to freak out. Jimmy Murphy said, "It's okay. It's an F-15." I've never heard an F-15 before. I don't go to air shows or anything.
But that plane and the rumble, especially because you hadn't heard a plane since; maybe a helicopter or two. But that sound, that was -- and just to see all these fighter jets over New York City was very, very strange.
So then we restocked, and we were sent to Chelsea Piers. We pretty much spent the rest of our night there. Actually how did I get to Chelsea Piers? Honestly, I don't know where we went after Bellevue. All I know is at some point I got hooked up with Dr. Richmond and we ended up at Chelsea Piers. I don't know how I got there. Okay. That's pretty interesting.
Q:
It's common that people have gaps, because a lot of people don't recall big chunks of time from that day.
A:
I have no idea what I did. The next thing I know, it was night time and we were at Chelsea Piers and we were helping -- we got the morgue set up, which actually they never used, on the ice rink, which I thought it was actually a good idea.
Yeah, just getting everything set up, all the hospitals, getting all the people -- everyone was just rushing in. Everybody knows about how many people we had volunteering their time, and just stuff, equipment.
I remember at one point an unmarked truck pulls outside Chelsea Piers, and they start unloading it. You see just big brown boxes. I'm like, "Guys, I know I'm Miss Panicker here, but did anybody check those boxes? Where is this stuff from? It could be terrorist stuff." The FEMA guy standing next to me says, "Oh, maybe we should check the truck out." I was like oh, my God, you know. Who knew at that point? He was like, "Wow, that's a good idea."
At some point that night, we went to go check out some of the -- I went with Dr. Richmond to ground zero from Chelsea, and I got to see a little bit of it. Words can't describe. You can see all the pictures and all the footage. I don't know if you guys were there or not, but it just looks like the gates of hell opened up. I've heard that from other people too. You can't describe that.
Then we went back up, and we were finishing coordinating. I actually got home the first night, because my husband came and picked me up. That was good. That was very good. I was very, very thankful, very thankful. We're both the same type of people, we're there.
I know my parents were in Walt Disney World, and they shut the whole park and wouldn't tell people why they started shutting people out. A guy had a radio and told my parents, and my mom just flipped, because she knows where I work. She knows that when big things happen, we're out the door first.
The only reason why I wasn't out the door with Dr. Cherson and Manny Delgado was because I was making my frigging bacon in the pantry. Who knows what would have happened had I been there.
You hear all these stories. There were so many people that were just lucky because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or the right place at the right time. That's two things: I had my bacon saved me, hopefully, and then Janice Olszewski stopping us in the middle of Broadway before we drove right into the thing. I'm very lucky and very happy.
I came back the next morning, and I had met up with Dr. Cherson at that point. I spent the next couple of days with him. That's a very big blur. All I know is that by the end of the day I could barely walk, my feet hurt so much. My big toes are still numb now, because we were just on our feet for so many hours. The next couple of days I ended up just sleeping up here in one of the doc's offices.
Oh, wait, no, I forgot this one. The next day we were -- after we were helping the setup -- they were setting up the northwest triage and treatment sector in the American Express building all of a sudden you started to hear that rumble again. Everybody just took off.
Q:
This is on the 12th?
A:
Yes. Apparently in the back some of the facade had been falling down, but you didn't know that. All you know is you heard that rumble again. We were all running. All of a sudden we're like "we're not far enough," which we heard a lot of them.
All of sudden I see one of our EMTs coming up towards West Street, and he's starting to go in the building. I started screaming, "Get out of there!" One of the cops turned around and said, "Why are you screaming?" "Because you know what, I just ran for my frigging life again. If I'm a little high-strung right now, then you're going to have to understand that."
This guy was going back in the building. He's like, "Oh, okay. All right." Why are you screaming? Because he's walking towards a building that might be collapsing? I don't know, you know. It was just funny.
We moved back, and then they checked it out. You see the back corner had collapsed a little bit. But they checked it out. Apparently the building was -- they used it for a triage and then the morgue. I think it's still being used, actually. I think the DMAT teams are in there now.
I don't know what else you're looking for.
Q:
That's great.
A:
Kind of a rambling story.
Q:
That's what we're looking for. We're looking for your recollections, a narrative from you as to what you observed. We appreciate that.
A:
I'm just meeting people. I met one guy, one of my old partners, and he was off. He said his whole fire company's gone, the whole company. Just running into people like that. When you look at people that you're not going to see again, it's hard. It's very difficult.
T. MULQUEEN
Thank you.
Q:
Thank you very much for your recollections.
MR. McALLISTER:
This is Kevin McAllister again. It is 12:12 on October 4th, 2001, and we're going to conclude the interview now. The interview started at 11:52 hours.
File No. 9110011: CHIEF SALVATORE CASSANO
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 4, 2001
Transcribed by: Elisabeth F. Nason
S. CASSANO
MR. TAMBASCO:
This is the interview of - I'm here with Salvatore Cassano. We are in his office on the 7th floor at 9 Metrotech. My name is Mike Tambasco. I'm the investigator assigned to the World Trade Center Task Force. Present in the room with me is Assistant Commissioner James Drury, Fire Marshal Michael Starace, Peter Campbell, Fire Marshal.
Chief, if you would - we are going to be starting this interview at 1350 hours. Just take your time.
Q:
I'm going to ask you some questions, Chief. Could you start from when you initially heard about a plane crash on September 11, 2001?
A:
Okay, fine. We were in the command center. I was in the command center at the time the first plane hit. We were sitting around the table and at the table was Chief of the Department Pete Ganci, Citywide Tour Commander Donald Burns, Citywide Tour Commander Jerry Barbara and Citywide Tour Commander Joe Callan. There may have been some other people there. I don't remember, but I know at least we were there.
Q:
Where was this command center, Chief?
A:
The command center was in the back. It was the citywide tour command center. It's right behind the fire operations center. There is a room back there where we have our offices.
Q:
On the 7th floor?
A:
Right, on the 7th floor. We were just talking about the day's events, the previous day's events, when on the Department radio, there was a message blurted out that - something to the effect that the outside of the World Trade Center was on fire. So that sort of perked up our ears, and not knowing what was going on, everybody naturally did what they do. They got up and started to move out, and I stayed there a little longer just to see what the transmission was, and I remember hearing something about a plane hitting the World Trade Center, so now I really got my gear and my motor in gear.
I came out of the office, came down to look for Chief Ganci. Pete was already on the road. I looked out the window and in the office with me was Mike Canty, Battalion Chief. We looked out the window and we saw that the plane had hit the tower. We actually saw a lot of smoke coming from the World Trade Center. I said wow. With that I turned around and I left. I went down to my car. My aide was actually driving Donald Burns the day before. So he had to stay with Donald Burns and had driven Donald Burns, so I drove myself.
I got in my car, drove out of the building and was naturally listening to the reports and all the reports we heard, you know, including a transmittal of a fifth alarm. I came out and over the Brooklyn Bridge. All I could see - being that I was driving, I really couldn't get a good look, but I did see a heavy column of smoke in the sky. I drove over the Brooklyn Bridge.
I went down and actually had 2 EMTs in my car. One was a black man. I don't know who the other fellow was. They asked me for a ride over to the Trade Center. I took Brad with me and Brad could tell you who the other fellow was, because I don't remember. And they were in the back seat. That's what I was doing. And we drove down, we came actually onto West Broadway. I parked right by - I was trying to park by 7 World Trade Center, so I ended up on West Broadway and Vesey, right on the corner, right adjacent to the Federal Office Building.
Then as we were getting out of the car, the second plane hit the south tower, just as we were stepping out of the car. We had some debris come flying down on us. Brad and the other fellow took off. I ran into a garage, waited till everything cleared up and then when it calmed down, I got back into my car and we went --
Q:
You were going to go pick up your car?
A:
We went down. I got back in the car after the smoke and all had cleared from the second hit and I ended up going down, possibly Murray Street to West Street. I parked my car on West Street, probably somewhere near Barclay, probably a little further north of that. I got my bunker gear out of the car. I suited up and I looked up and I could see the heavy smoke condition.
I started to walk down West Street and I got in front of tower two and saw where the command post was set up. It was set up on West Street. I looked up and I knew this was not the right place for the command post, so I told the field communications unit, I said this is too close to the building. We have to move this out of here and get it back.
So they took the command post and moved it further across the street, further west. I'm not exactly sure where the garage is, but it's probably in front of the Millennium. Not the Millennium. Sorry. It's probably in front of the Two World Financial Center and Winter Garden. There is a garage down there where we set up. You will know, if you have been down there. You will see it. It was there.
So what we did was we set up the command post there across the street, further away from the building. At the command post we had Chief of Department Ganci, myself, field communications and numerous companies. I don't remember. I remember seeing the 101 truck, 202 engine, I think it was 105; companies like that.
Then Chief Galvin reported into that command post, and he had been given an assignment to go to work with either Chief Burns in the south tower or go to the Millennium. Again, I'm not exactly sure what the instructions were that he was given by Chief of Department Ganci and before Tom went to the command post, he was getting all the channels right. He said one was going to be the tactical and either 5 was going to be the command in the south tower or 6 was going to be the command for the north tower and he was trying to get everything down pat before he left. With that he took off and he went on his way.
After looking over the command board and helping communications with the command board, talking to Chief Ganci, he asked me to go in there and rendezvous with Chief Galvin to see what was going on. So from the command post I walked across the street. I went into the Millennium, into the lobby, where I saw Chief Galvin, who was kind of overwhelmed. He was the only one there. His aide had gone someplace and he was very busy.
But inside the lobby of the Millennium it was very quiet. Very few civilians. In fact, I didn't see a civilian. All I saw were building employees. They were very calm. So I went into the lobby of the hotel. We saw 13 truck with Captain Walter Hynes, who I knew, and Captain Dave Wooley, who is usually with engine 54. I saw 11 truck in the lobby. Actually they were up on the mezzanine.
I saw 23 engine and I assigned 23 engine to be the command post company for the Millennium to help out Chief Galvin. We were getting overwhelmed with phone numbers and elevators and all that and keeping a record of the companies. So I gave 23 engine that assignment. Stay in the lobby and be the command post company for Chief Galvin. You are his aide.
After conversing with Chief Galvin for a while, taking his numbers on the desk, security desk, so we could converse with them if we needed to get in touch with them, I took the phone number. I took the companies that were in the lobby and went towards the restaurant. There is a restaurant, Tall Ships, in that building. Went in there, went to the bathroom. Came out. There were some people in the restaurant. They looked kind of confused. I told them stay here, it's safe right now. There's people jumping and stuff like that. I was afraid of them walking across the street and getting hurt by falling debris.
I left the lobby. I left the restaurant by way of Liberty. I came out that exit, started to walk up Liberty to West, where I met Commissioner Feehan and Commissioner Tierney. I talked to them. I actually showed them where the command post was. I told them to walk away from the building because there were jumpers and get close to a fence. There was like a chain link fence across the street. We walked along the chain link fence and walked close to the building. When we got to the building, I brought them to the command post.
We stayed at the command post for a while, helping out Chief Ganci, and then the south tower collapsed. When the south tower collapsed, what we did was we either ran, got blown or fell down that garage, into that garage. That's where we all went. And after the dust and smoke cleared, someone showed us an exit. I went up an exit stairway and came out the lobby of the building. Some people, I guess, just stayed there until it really cleared and came up out of the garage, the ramp itself.
So they had told us there was an exit out the rear of that building to - actually further towards the water. So we started telling people to go back into that building, go out the rear exit and go towards the water. Chief Ganci told me to set up a command post further north towards Chambers Street. And that's what I started to do. I started to walk north to try to get people to set up a command post further north and I believe that's when Pete and I got separated. Pete started to go further south.
At the corner of West and Vesey, I met Chief Turi. He had a bull horn. He had full bunker gear on and he wanted people to get further north. I told him I was setting up a command post on Chambers and let's move north, get out of here.
Then I met Chief Pete Hayden and Chief Joe Pfeifer. Deputy Hayden, DC Pfeifer. They were in the lobby of the north tower. And they got from - when the south tower collapsed, the lobby got pretty crappy. They came out of there and they were all full of dust and all that and I saw Pete Hayden and I looked at Pete and said where were you? He said I was in the lobby of two and he said Father Judge is dead. I had just been with Father Judge. I had seen Father Judge on Church - sorry - West Street. I realized - I said Pete we have people up there, the building is loaded with our guys. We got to get them out of there.
I tried to call Chief Ganci on the handy talky. I was calling car 3. For some reason we couldn't touch base. So I told Pete Hayden and Joe Pfeifer, we got to move the command post further north, start moving north. Get them out of here. I'm going to go look for Pete and tell him what we got. They started to move, I turned around and started walking down West Street to find Chief Ganci.
Q:
Going south?
A:
I was going south. I was trying to find him, to let him know we still got a lot of people in the north building. We got to get them out of there and that's when tower one came down, so I was on West Street. I looked up. There was a jet plane. It sounded - I mean it sounded like another plane coming over and I said holy god, I hope it's one of ours. I looked up. It wasn't ours. There was a building coming down.
I turned around and started running north on West and I looked up. I knew I wasn't going to make it any further. There was a rig on the corner of West and Vesey. I dove under the rig and waited out there. I got hit in the back with some concrete or something like that. As soon as everything cleared up - I don't know where it came from, but coming down - I met Pete Hayden again after that. He had gone up Rector. I met him. He gave me a hug and said are you all right? I'm fine, I thought, I was all right. I couldn't walk. I had gotten hit in the back.
A couple of EMTs with their stretcher put me on it and wheeled me up into a building. I guess there was a triage center there in the building on - right by the water. From there they took me to St. Vincent's Hospital. I got out of there about 3. I came back here and I started working here. That's pretty much what happened.
Q:
Let me start with a couple of questions, Chief. Going back to the command center on West Street, you said when the south tower came down, you ran down the driveway?
A:
Uh-huh.
Q:
Did you see Chief Ganci at that point --
A:
I saw him afterwards. We all took off, but I met him back on the apron afterwards. That's when he told me, he said, we got to get people up north. We are going to set up another command post. Send everybody up north. That's when I talked to Pete and that's what I was in the process of doing. Pete turned around and went south. I think he heard that we had people trapped and that's when he went south. I did see him after the first collapse. We were talking. He had given me instructions, and I was trying to carry them out.
Q:
What about Commissioner Feehan, did you see him running to the collapse?
A:
I can't recollect, but I believe I saw him afterwards. I believe I saw him afterwards with Pete. I believe everybody that was on that apron made it into the garage, because when we came back out we looked around. There was rubble, but nothing where we couldn't see somebody if they were trapped under there.
Q:
Now you said when you came around and you saw Chief Turi with a bull horn, you started heading south again, because you wanted to talk to Chief Ganci about possibly -- our guys in the north tower.
A:
North tower, yes.
Q:
How far down did you get in relation to where the command post on West Street was when the north tower started coming down?
A:
I really don't know. I thought I got -- I didn't get down too far, but I think I got down further than I thought I did because I -- people that were on the corner that were with me made it all the way around on Vesey. I couldn't. I made it just to the corner of West and Vesey. So I don't really know. I got down a little further than I thought.
Q:
Okay. Then you said they had the command center outside the north tower early on and then you said it's too close, we got to move it?
A:
Right.
Q:
Where had it been in relation to the north tower when you decided it had to be moved?
A:
It was right in the middle of West Street. They might have had it on the island. On West Street there is an island. They might have had it right on the island. Much too close. We moved it across the street and right against the building in that driveway, yes.
Q:
You say you parked your car originally at West Broadway and Vesey?
A:
Right by 7 World Trade Center.
Q:
Is there any particular reason you moved it again after that?
A:
No, I wanted to get closer -- I knew that that was too far away. So I wanted to get closer to where I thought the command post would be or get into the north tower and I didn't want to walk all the way around to there, so I drove my car, parked it on West Street with the intention of not being caught in all the other stuff that was there, get it out of the way.
Q:
Other than the ladder companies or engine companies you already delineated inside of the Millennium Hotel, other than the workers, how many civilians did you see in that restaurant?
A:
I would say probably six or seven civilians in the restaurant.
Q:
On Vesey Street when you first arrived there, what was the scene like? That was where the first plane hit. Was there any debris on that street?
A:
No, there was no debris on that street at all from the first plane. I drove right up there and then like I said, I had just opened my door and the second -- I thought it was the secondary explosion. I didn't know it was another plane in the south tower, because when I heard it, I looked up and I saw debris. It had to be debris flying over from the south tower. Not much, but there was enough coming down in the street where I took off and I ducked into a garage until it cleared up.
After the secondary explosion in the north tower, I didn't know what the hell - I didn't know it was another plane that had hit until I got around to the command post.
Q:
Do you know now that rig you dived under?
A:
Yes, I believe it was Rescue's collapse rig. I remember seeing rescue - they told me -- on that corner, it was Rescue's collapse rig.
Q:
It withstood the blast?
A:
Yes, thank god.
Q:
Was it the high rise unit?
A:
No, not the high rise unit. I think they told me the windows were blown out or something like that, but nothing heavy fell on me.
Q:
What time do you think it was that you actually left this building that day, that morning?
A:
Probably 5 to 9. I ran right out. I was a little behind everybody else.
Q:
And the last time you saw Chief Burns was?
A:
Last time I saw Chief Burns was at the command center and when he left the command center, I never saw him at the scene.
Q:
Did you hear him on the radio at all?
A:
No, in fact I was asking where they were working, because they told me that Chief Barbara had set up outside and I couldn't find him. I was looking for him too. I couldn't find him. That's where I met Commissioner Feehan and Commissioner Tierney and they asked me where was the command post. I said probably you just got to walk around the outside and get out of the way of anything that's coming out of the building.
Q:
Did you ever hear later on that the initial command post was inside one of the towers?
A:
No. I knew that there had to be a lobby command post, but we set up outside with Chief Ganci. He was the incident commander at that time and I knew exactly where he was going to stage, so that's where I staged.
Q:
When you left the restaurant in the Millennium, did you see Chief Galvin still inside the lobby there?
A:
Yes.
Q:
What block did you come down when you met Commissioner Feehan and Commissioner Tierney?
A:
I came out on Liberty and I met them right there, in fact, where the south walkway still is. I met them right around there, in that vicinity, and they wanted to know where, so I walked them that way across and came down on West Street.
Q:
On what street, West and Liberty?
A:
Yes, yes.
Q:
You actually walked north with them to bring them up to the command post?
A:
Absolutely right.
Q:
West across and then up?
A:
I don't know where. I think Lynn went into the lobby somewhere. I don't know. I don't know. I think they told me she was in the lobby and then Bill went to the lobby too. I stayed at the command board with Pete Ganci. I stayed there.
Q:
You mentioned jumpers before. Did you see them?
A:
Yes
Q:
Both towers?
A:
I didn't see jumpers from the south tower. I saw jumpers from the north tower and it sounded like concrete falling, hitting the pavement. That's what I was concerned with, those people in the restaurant, to get them out and getting hit with either the jumpers or something falling, windows. I was worried about glass.
Q:
You mentioned Father Judge. Where did you last see him?
A:
I saw Father Judge as I was walking to the Millennium. He was on West Street. And I saw him come out and I walked up to him, gave him a smile. I told him Father Judge, we are going to need a lot of help here. You better get some more chaplains. He smiled and said something. I forget what he said. I don't remember what he said. That was the last time I saw him.
Q:
Anything else?
A:
No.
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER DRURY:
Chief, thank you very much. Mike, you can conclude it.
S. CASSANO
MR. TAMBASCO:
The interview is now concluded at 1410 hours. Thank you, Chief.
File No. 9110012: EMT FELIPE TORRE
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Elisabeth F. Nason
F. TORRE
MMR. FEILER:
Today's date is October 9, 2001. The time now is 7:14 hours a.m. This is Lieutenant Monte Feiler with the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm conducting an interview with the following individual.
Q:
Please state your name, rank, and command?
A:
Felipe Torre, EMT, Battalion 50.
Q:
At Battalion 50, New York City Fire Department, EMS command, regarding the events of September 11, 2001.
EMT Torre, if you can just begin and give me a scenario of where you were during the time frame of September 11 in the morning.
A:
That morning I started to do a second tour of overtime. We were coming out of New York Hospital Queens. We had just taken a patient there and we were redeployed to the World Trade Center incident. We gave the dispatcher an update when we got there and we made it to Broadway and Murray Street and that is as far as you could go, because we were stopped by numerous police personnel and civilians because a lot of people that were hurt and needed assistance. We radioed in and I notified the dispatcher, the Citywide dispatcher, that we were not able to make it to the staging area.
F. TORRE
My partner and I, we got out, took our equipment, and you know, we separated. He attended to some patients and I attended to another. In the process of helping other people, over the radio we also heard that the second tower was hit. A lot of pandemonium, a lot of people were really scared. So was I. We were trying to help as much and control as much people as we can.
Then the first -- one of the towers fell down.
Q:
Did you see that?
A:
Yes. We were trying to help a couple of people into the ambulance and we got caught up in all that debris, you know.
Q:
Did you at any point go into any of the buildings?
A:
I was tending to some people at the CitiBank on Broadway and Murray.
Q:
They were being brought to you?
A:
They, the police stopped us. I think a couple of bank managers also were out and they hailed us. I believe I was helping some young lady that was cut, I believe it was on the leg. She was bleeding, then there was other people that were complaining of chest pain and they had respiratory distress and we were trying to see if we could get some other units to help us.
Q:
Were you parked on Broadway southbound?
A:
Yes.
Q:
North of Murray?
A:
Yes, and --
Q:
You were flagged for injured people, you never actually got to whatever staging area you were told to go to?
A:
Right. We never made it there. All hell broke loose, because it came over my radio, people yelling to get out, they were bombing New York. So we never really finished providing care for these people, because they all panicked and they all stampede out. We followed out, because everybody was wanting to get out. The walls shook and then we felt it when a rumbling and some people were yelling earthquake.
Q:
Was your partner with you the whole time?
A:
We separated because there was so many people that wanted help. People, when we got to Manhattan, there was people already on their way out and people had fallen, people had shortness of breath, so he went one way and I went another. When the tower did fall, I didn't know where he was. He didn't know where I was. I personally got caught up in that big cloud of debris and the only thing I could think of was getting to the ambulance, which was parked. We had parked it, we left it right there. I know that we got caught up with a couple of the police officers and couple of civilians and all I can think of was just putting them in there and just easing the ambulance out and that's how we got out.
Q:
You drove out of it?
A:
We drove out of it yes, and we were advised to --
Q:
You found your partner, your partner came back out?
A:
Yes, he came back out. We also helped out Captain Olszewski, she, she came out of that rubble. We were all covered in that dust, but she was, I guess she was -- we were all choking, but she was really bad and I got her into the ambulance. I was trying to get as many people out and she had I guess stepped out, because I didn't know where she had went.
Q:
What was your unit number that day?
A:
I was 50 Adam.
Q:
Who was your partner that day?
A:
David Cira.
Q:
David?
A:
C-I-R-A.
Q:
Were you told a specific staging area to go to over the radio?
A:
Yes, they -- but they had changed it. I believe it was Vesey and West. I know it was Vesey Street, Vesey and I think the West Side Highway, as far as I can remember, but we never made it there.
Q:
Where did you say you were?
A:
We were at Broadway and Murray.
Q:
You were a few blocks away?
A:
Right.
Q:
What time do you think you got there, approximately?
A:
It was before the second plane hit I guess.
Q:
I guess 9:15. Anywhere around --
A:
We got there before the second plane hit, so we got there after the first plane. Everybody was speculating that it was a possibility that it was a news helicopter that had lost control and slammed into the tower.
Q:
Where did you get that information from?
A:
It came through the KDT. It was something about an aircraft that I believe that I read, that it was a possibility that lost control.
Q:
You were on the scene for how long would you say before the second plane hit approximately?
A:
It seems like it happened so fast, but we were there when the second plane hit and we were there when the first tower collapsed. So I don't know, I guess you could say, what, 40 minutes.
Q:
You said at some point you had some civilians on board when you left that Broadway and Murray location?
A:
Yes, we never left, we, my partner and I, we separated. He went and helped out some people. I was helping out some people and the second plane hit and of course over my radio there was just a lot of people were yelling and they were talking about terrorists and they were talking about bombing, so everybody heard it and everybody panicked. It seemed like we were right there because the whole building shook and then the ambulance was right parked at the street.
Q:
Did you see any other apparatus go by, fire engines or EMS units?
A:
Yes, yes, I believe there was a Booth, a New York Hospital Queens unit. There was like two other units, but we all went separate ways because there were so many people that needed help. Then I guess, I don't know which tower fell down, but that caught us. All of a sudden, bright sunny day became pitch dark and we were all choking and we couldn't see and all I remember was get to the ambulance. I think I took about 6 police officers that they also were caught up in there and I just told them get in the ambulance. I think I took like 2 or 3 civilians. I had no idea.
I was afraid also because some of the people said look, there is a guy from EMS that is laying on the floor. They had told me. I said I didn't know if it was my partner or not. But you couldn't see anything. So I didn't know where that might be. We couldn't see anything. What I did was I did a U-turn and edged my way out of that location, then my partner showed up like a block away. I stepped to the back and he took us out of there. They told us whatever patient we get, take them out of Manhattan, so we just notified, we asked for a stand by at New York Hospital Queens. I believe it was like 6 officers, about 3 civilians that we brought in. That was it. I came back.
Q:
Did you see any other EMS personnel besides those going by, anyone in the street, any officers, EMS officers?
A:
Like I said we were helping out Captain Olszewski. She wasn't doing too good, but then she stepped out. We washed her face.
Q:
Do you know where she went?
A:
No, I, you know, I told her to stay, she wasn't doing too good, but came back to Queens and we started seeing -- she had walked out, so I don't know where she had gone. But that, I do remember that. I saw a lot of other people, EMS people, but I don't recognize them. They could have been Manhattan units. Everybody was doing something.
Q:
You met your partner one block away, where would that be?
A:
You know, we were on Murray and Broadway. I made a U-turn, so I'm not sure if it was on Broadway that we were on or on Murray, but -- I don't know, I really couldn't tell you a precise, but thank god when I saw him I was relieved, because everybody told me that he was hurt.
Q:
He had patients with him at that time?
A:
No, no. Because I had the ambulance. He had came out and whoever we were helping, everybody was just going crazy. Then after that it was trying to help your own selves.
Q:
And you transported to a hospital?
A:
New York Hospital, Queens, the old Booth Memorial.
Q:
You weren't there when the second building collapsed?
A:
I don't think so. I don't know which one had collapsed, but we were there when.
Q:
The first one came down?
A:
Yes, one of them came down. I took police officers from the -- the Bronx, the 49 precinct.
Q:
Did you get their names, were you ever able to get their names?
A:
Oh, yes, we did ACR's on them. Yes, we did ACR's. I'm not sure. I think it was like 6 officers and about 3 civilians. We tried our best. I know that one of them suffered, one of the civilians, an older lady, she suffered an MI, and I think one of the officers had an asthma attack. We all, they were all, I was trying to give everybody time on the oxygen, because there was two on board and the two on the portable bags that we had and I had like 6 cops and 3 civilians, something like that, so we were trying to help each other, as well as myself. We took them to the hospital and that's all I know. They told me to come back here.
Q:
You came back to the Battalion?
A:
Yes.
Q:
You never responded back?
A:
No, no. I never went back there. Besides, the ambulance wasn't fit to go back. It was just filled with all that dust and a lot of the people had either vomited or spit it all over.
Q:
When the first building collapsed, you and your partner were separated, you were by yourself tending to patients?
A:
Well, when we got there we never made it to the staging, because a lot of the police officers just flagged us down and I recall that they flagged us down at Broadway and Murray. We were in front of the, I believe it was CitiBank. The employees of the banks said look, we got a lot of people that are hurt. There was a young lady that had a laceration, I believe. I don't know if it was to the foot or leg. That's when a short time later, that's when the second plane hit, so I never got a chance to finish trying to control bleeding.
There was also people that were complaining of chest pains and stuff like that. So I never got a chance to see all these people because once the second plane hit, it came over the radio that terrorists and bombing, so of course, everybody all panicked, got out and just started running and the lady with the cut, I don't know where she went. We all ended up outside. That's when one of the towers fell.
Q:
Where were you at that point when the first tower fell?
A:
At that location, Broadway and Murray.
Q:
In the street or in the CitiBank?
A:
We had came out because we didn't know what was going on. First they said they were bombing New York. A lot of people were talking about earthquakes and everybody just scattered. Somebody had told me that my partner was hurt and then all you could see is that big cloud. We can hear the rumbling, you could hear. We just saw that cloud, we turned around and it all caught us. I was with the -- I can't remember her name, but it was a police officer, female police officer.
She grabbed on to me. She got scared. I was scared, because we heard all that rumbling and we could only imagine that parts of the tower was falling down. My concern was if we stay there we were going to get hit. But like I said, day turned to night and all I could think of was get to the ambulance, because I knew we had oxygen there and at least we can at least inch our way out. But when they heard the radio, a lot of people just made like a Cuban chain. She clung on to me and then they clung on to her and I said look, let's get in the ambulance, get some oxygen, we had water. We were able to wash our faces out.
So like I said, there was about I think 6 officers. They brought I think about 3 civilians came in. As much as I could get in and I turned around and we in ched our way out and then thank god my partner showed up and we notified them that we were taking them to the old Booth.
Q:
You were working off a radio, do you remember what channel you were on?
A:
Citywide.
Q:
Did you always stay on that channel, were you initially on that channel or did you ever change to it and did you change any other frequency after that?
A:
No, afterwards they told us to stay on Citywide. We were --
Q:
You were initially on Queens?
A:
We were on Queens, right. We were on Queens, then they told us to switch to Citywide. A lot of people were calling for help. I was calling for help. We just notified them that we were going to go to the Queens Hospital.
Q:
Okay. Was there any persons from people that you can identify being on the scene, any other uniformed workers that you know by name, any paramedics or EMTs that you know that you saw while you were operating on the scene until you left the scene that you saw present there?
A:
You know, I saw a few people, but I don't know their names. The only one that I can recall was Captain Olszewski. I saw Hunter units that were also there. Metro Care units.
Q:
EMS officers, other than the Captain, that's the only one you saw?
A:
I saw other officers, but like I said I don't know them by name.
Q:
Were they running away from the building, were they running into another building?
A:
When we first got there, there were two units pulled up. We got there and like I said a lot of people stopped us, so we never made it to the staging or to the triage. Then they pulled up, I believe it was New York Hospital Queens paramedic ambulance. They also tended to other people saying that they was having chest pains. I think Saint Vincent's Catholic Medical Center paramedic ambulance was also there.
Q:
But you can't identify who the individuals were?
A:
I can remember their faces, because they work here in Queens, but I don't know their names offhand.
Q:
You saw them again afterwards that same day or --
A:
No, I haven't seen them recently that I recall. If they show me pictures or something, I bet I can recall them.
Q:
Okay. Any fire officers did you see that you know, that you would know who they are?
A:
By me, no.
MR. FEILER:
At this time I would like to ask the other interviewers to state their name, rank, and command.
MS. ROM:
Lieutenant Pat Rom, from the Bureau of Investigations and Trials.
MS. MAGGI:
EMT Diana Maggi from Investigations and Trials.
Q:
Is there anything else that you would like to add before we conclude the interview that you think is important?
A:
No.
MR. FEILER:
At this time we will conclude the interview. I want to thank you for your time in assisting us with this. The time now is 7:35 a.m. This will conclude the interview.
File No. 9110013: EMT ANTHONY BARTOLOMEY
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Nancy Francis
A. BARTOLOMEY
MS. BASTEDENBECK:
Today's date is October 9th, 2001. The time is 0916 hours. This is Christine Bastedenbeck of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I'm with Christopher Eccleston. We're conducting an interview with the following individual:
Q:
Please state your name, rank, title, and your assigned command of the Fire Department regarding the events of September 11th, 2001.
A:
My name is Anthony Bartolomey, an EMT assigned to EMS Battalion 4.
Q:
What unit were you working on September 11?
A:
02 Bravo Tour I.
Q:
Who were you working with on that day?
A:
Pasquale Felitti.
Q:
On that morning, were you assigned to the World Trade Center?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Approximately what time?
A:
At approximately 8:55 a.m.
Q:
At approximately what time did you arrive?
A:
At about 8:58.
Q:
On your way there, were you able to see anything that was happening?
A:
Debris floating in the air from the towers, people running away from the towers and vehicles left abandoned in the street. We were approaching from Broadway coming westbound on Cortlandt Street. There were two taxicabs and a soda truck left abandoned by their drivers. My partner actually got out of the vehicle and pulled the vehicles over to the side so we could get the ambulance through. We made a right turn onto Church Street, parked on Church and Fulton in front of the Millenium Hotel on the southeast corner.
Q:
When you arrived there, did any civilians report anything to you?
A:
Yes. Numerous civilians were telling me that a plane had hit the building. There were discrepancies as to the type of plane. Some were saying it was a Cessna or Lear jet type, a small jet plane. Some said it was a large passenger plane. One person actually said that it was like a military style plane that actually shot missiles into the building.
Q:
Who did you report to when you first got there?
A:
When we got there, there were no supervisors on the scene. We reported to a paramedic unit from New York Downtown, I believe it was 1 Victor. They're paramedics based out of Beekman Downtown Hospital.
A. BARTOLOMEY
They had their vehicle on the corner of Vesey and Church, on the southwest corner, in front of 5 World Trade by Borders Bookstore. They already had three patients in their vehicle. There were more patients approaching as we had gotten there. So we grabbed our equipment out of our vehicle and walked up a block to them. It was them and a crew from 1 Adam was there also treating some patients. Nobody had established staging at that time yet, or, if they had, it hadn't come up over the radio. So pretty much we stayed where we were and started to treat patients there.
Q:
That was where; at the corner of --
A:
The corner of Vesey and Church Street.
Q:
Okay. Then just tell me the events that you remember happening.
A:
Then as we were starting to treat some more patients, we heard rumbling. We thought maybe it was debris falling from the tower. You look up and you see the flame of the plane hitting the second building. When you see the footage on TV, you see it fly in one side and the fireball shot out through the other side. We actually saw the fireball shot out from the north side of that building.
Everybody got behind the vehicle to brace themselves against any debris that was coming down. Debris came down. There was glass and metal hitting the ground around us. That's when we decided to get out of that area because we didn't know what else was going to come down on us. So we got the people that were able to walk from there, we got them to walk, got ourselves out of there.
I'm not sure where my partner went after that. I went towards the subway station on Church Street in front of that cemetery. It's by the Trinity Church annex. Because people were standing there just like deer in the headlights kind of thing, just staring.
Q:
Did you walk at that point?
A:
I ran, actually.
Q:
You ran. Okay.
A:
It was only across the street because we were on the west side of the street. The subway station is on the east side. There's a double entrance. Two stairways converge into one. They go down into the mezzanine level. People were just standing there. I was telling them get down, get underground, because they're sitting there while stuff is still falling on them. So I get them down there.
A. BARTOLOMEY
That's where I started finding patients and apparently somebody was there with -- I guess he must have been treated and the crew that was there ran and he got left behind because he had a cervical collar and he had a triage tag around his neck. So I had a couple of civilians help me carry him down the stairs to the bottom, to the mezzanine level, where the token clerk is, put him there, and then they had another patient who was a female. She had fallen and hit her head. She had a lump about the size of a golf ball on her forehead. She was going in and out of consciousness. We put her down next to the other guy. Then there was an elderly female who felt weak in the legs and was unable to walk. So now I had three patients there in front of the token booth.
So I go back upstairs, come up on the radio, let them know, you know, I'm half crew. I don't know where my partner is. I've got three patients not able to walk. I need somebody to get them out of there because at that point I had no equipment on me either. Slowly but surely the police started coming down with some equipment to help carry the patients out. We got the third one out of there. I forget exactly what time. It was right before the towers fell, which that was about between 9:55 and 10:00, approximately.
Because we had gotten back upstairs with the last patient and there was nobody around. There were police officers there saying the tower was in danger of collapse and so they were evacuating the immediate area.
So we went up one block to Barclay Street. We were still on Church walking northbound. We got to St. Peter's Church, and I'm not sure who these people were, I'm not sure if they were federal or plainclothes police officers also, told us start setting up a triage over in front of St. Peter's Church because at this point nobody really was sure where everybody was going. So anybody who could walk was walking, getting out of the immediate area.
So we still had this one guy on a long board with a collar on him, and they brought one other person over who was in a stair chair. I forget exactly what his injuries were. I believe he had hurt his ankle or something like that. That's when we heard the rumbling of the tower starting to collapse and we started to get people inside the church because you saw the cloud of the smoke and the soot that was kicked up when the tower fell. At the rate of speed it was coming up the street, we weren't going to be able to outrun it, so we decided the best bet would be to get back inside.
We got who we could inside. I got caught outside of the church when the dust cloud overcame me and then I felt my way back in. There were some other officers and people inside the church, and we waited there until the dust subsided a little bit so we could get out.
At that point I lost track of time. I couldn't tell you exactly what time everything happened after that. We get outside I was complaining my throat was burning from breathing in -- I don't think how long I was outside breathing in all the soot and everything. There was a unit from Booth Memorial Hospital, another ambulance unit. They already had patients in their vehicle. They took me and told me to go with them, and then they brought me up to Roosevelt Hospital.
Q:
And you became a patient there?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Where were you when the second tower collapsed?
A:
I'm not sure because, like I said, I lost track of time. So I'm not sure if I was still in the church when the second tower came down because we were in there for quite a while before you could see outside enough to step out because the soot and the dust, the black in the sky to the point where it looked like it was nighttime outside.
Q:
You said you ended up going to the hospital with a Booth Memorial unit?
A:
Yes.
Q:
In the time that you were down at the scene of the Trade Center, did you run into any EMTs or paramedics that you knew?
A:
I ran into one, but I didn't know him. He said he was from Brooklyn.
Q:
Was he on duty or off duty, in a uniform?
A:
He had the uniform shirt, but he was wearing jeans, so I'm assuming he was off duty at the time.
Q:
But you didn't know his name?
A:
I didn't know who he was. He just said he worked out of Brooklyn.
Q:
The only place you went prior to the collapse was into the subway station?
A:
Yes.
Q:
And that was --
A:
The E train. It's the World Trade Center station of the E train.
A. BARTOLOMEY
Q. From which street did you enter into that?
A:
From Church Street in between I believe it's Cortlandt -- no. Fulton and Vesey. Right here in front of St. Paul's cemetery.
Q:
You never went into the Trade Center buildings themselves?
A:
No. The closest I got was in the front, right here, where Borders Bookstore was, which is right over here. That was as close as I got. I never actually went inside the building, no.
Q:
So for the first collapse you had gone to St. Peter's Church?
A:
Yes.
Q:
As the building came down and the cloud of smoke approached you, you felt your way into the church?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Then you came outside and you're not even aware of when the second tower came down?
A:
No.
Q:
Do you know approximately what time you became a patient?
A:
That would probably be around between 10:30 and 11:00. I have the paperwork from the hospital. I don't have it with me. But it would tell you what time I got to the hospital and the time I was released.
Q:
Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to include in the interview, anything you want to say?
A:
No, that's about it.
MS. BASTEDENBECK:
Then this concludes the interview with EMT Anthony Bartolomey. The time now is 9:28 on October 9, 2001.
File No. 9110014: EMTD CHRISTOPHER KAGENAAR
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Nancy Francis
C. KAGENAAR
MR. RADENBERG:
Today is September 9th, 2001. The time is 1533 hours. This is Paul Radenberg of the Fire Department, City of New York. I am conducting an interview with the following individual:
Q:
Please state your name, rank, and title.
A:
EMTD Christopher John Kagenaar.
Q:
Your assigned command?
A:
My assigned command is Battalion 31.
Q:
Of the Fire Department, City of New York?
A:
That is correct.
Q:
We are at EMS Battalion 31. This interview is regarding the events of September 11th, 2001. All yours. This is not so much by the questions but what you recall.
A:
Pretty much coming out of the station, because the station is always overlooking the World Trade Center, that as we got the signal over the KDT and we were pulling out of the station, I thought it was like a little fire, and then we come out and there's like people from Cumberland Hospital looking up at it and there was like black, thick smoke coming out of the World Trade Center Tower 1 and we're like, wow, this is real, because you really didn't know how bad it was until we got over the Brooklyn Bridge, when we got near the Brooklyn Bridge. It looked like a war zone. Cops, firemen, vehicles, all the lights heading over the bridge. It was crazy. It was like it was a movie.
Then as soon as we got over there, as soon as we got off of the Brooklyn Bridge, the people were running like it was a Godzilla movie, and we had to stop there for a while. People were overcome, were shaken, were scared, minor cuts and bruises, and we had to stop and do that, and there was a Lieutenant that showed up and said, look, you guys have to get over to the scene. You guys can't stay here. So finally when PD got control of the area, we moved over to I think it was Church. I think it was Church area.
What happened was then the second plane hit the tower, and it was a loud noise, I mean, it hit, and at first I was like this can't be happening. It's like lightning doesn't strike twice. Then the second plane hit the tower, so now we know, oh, my God, what's really going on here now?
So it was just a lot of confusion, everybody started running again, and then we set up and we started treating people, I mean, minor cuts and scrapes, and some people had serious damage.
C. KAGENAAR
MR. TAMBASCO:
Do you recall where you were when this was happening? I don't know if the map would help you at all.
Q:
When you first came off the bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge, do you remember where you were?
A:
We were over here on Church. Because he was Haz-Tac, so I had to set up like 200 feet away and stuff.
Q:
So on Church Street somewhere?
A:
Right.
Q:
Somewhere on Church. You were down by the towers?
A:
Yes, I was down by the towers.
Q:
Okay.
A:
Then, when the second tower came down, everybody started running, big cloud of smoke. I left the truck open because I couldn't find Harris and I dove down a train station. Then I came back up on Reade and I got back in there and came back to the scene and I see my ambulance. It was still there, but it was like full of dust and soot. Because in case Harris could have made it to the truck, he could have dove in the truck to save himself. There was just total devastation. I've never seen anything like it before in my life. So Russell had --
Q:
Your partner, Russell?
A:
Right. Russell Harris.
Q:
He hadn't left you while you were there; you were still with the ambulance?
A:
Right. I had to be with the ambulance while he went into go Haz-Tac, to suit up.
Q:
Oh, okay. Alright. So he was suiting up with the Haz-Tac stuff?
A:
Right.
Q:
Then you lost sight of him?
A:
Right.
Q:
Do you remember where the train station was that you went in?
A:
No. I didn't even look. I just dove down the train station. Then I walked for like a little bit and I came back out when all the dust and soot cleared and everything.
Q:
Where did you go from there?
A:
I went right back to the truck.
Q:
Right back to the truck?
A:
Right back to the truck because I thought maybe he could have made it to the truck.
Q:
Then you stayed there?
C. KAGENAAR
A:
I stayed there. I met up with somebody whose name is Morrison. He was off duty and he showed up.
Q:
An EMS guy?
A:
Yes, an EMS guy. He showed up with shorts and Timberland boots and he just wanted to help out. So I was like, that's it, you're with me, we're going to stick together, and we went over to the staging. But we also had to run when the first tower came down. It was like the first time you thought it was impossible and then the second time it happened, too.
Q:
So Russell was still with you when the first one came down or he was gone? In other words, you got there, set up, and he went and set up?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Okay.
A:
I was mostly doing like treating patients and then a Citywide ambulance would come up and something like that, you know, hey, take this patient.
Q:
So when the first tower came down, that's when you went down into the subway, or the second one?
A:
The first tower.
Q:
The first one. Then you stayed there?
A:
Yes. Then the second tower, when the second tower was coming down, we grabbed as much people and personnel as we could, threw them in the back of the ambulance, and we went two blocks and we went down this way so we had the building protecting us as the -- it was nasty because there was such a thick, brown smoke, it was like everything was gone, and it was like that for a while.
Q:
So you were heading uptown?
A:
Yes.
Q:
I got you.
A:
Trying to keep the vehicle, one, intact, and also to try to get -- because I had loaded the back of the ambulance with people just to get them out of the area, cops, firemen, ATF agents, whatever.
Q:
Anybody who got in.
A:
Yes. Pretty much get in, get in, let's go. Morrison drove and we turned up this way and we just stood there and we waited until that big dust thing blew on everything. It was like a blizzard.
Q:
But you had the other building --
A:
Yes.
Q:
Do you remember what street you wound up on?
A:
No. I wasn't even looking.
Q:
Someplace north.
A:
Then they told all the units to start heading over to Chelsea Piers, and we went over there and we just stood there. Then they told us, okay, now you're going to go over to Reade and Greenwich. We went to Reade and Greenwich. We stood there. Then the 911 calls kept coming in, but it was like the calls that came in at 9:00 o'clock in the morning and we were backlogged. They started coming back in and like 7 World Trade Center --
Q:
You were hearing all this over the radio?
A:
Yes. So every time we tried to like -- we'd see a unit go out of staging and it would go back in, we're like hoping they won't come back. But they came back. So it was getting real depressing. Then finally they moved us over by the Staten Island Ferry and we just sat there until we got released. Pretty much we just stood there like hoping for something to do. We didn't see anything.
Q:
Just one other question. When you were talking about that Lieutenant before, when you first got there, was that an EMS Lieutenant?
A:
Yes, it was EMS.
Q:
It was. Okay. You don't know who it was?
A:
No. Pretty much I remember there was a Chief Vilani who was in charge of the Staten Island Ferry and he was like keeping us going and stuff. He was like, you know, we lost a lot of people, we don't know who, but we've got to keep going. So it was kind of nice to hear him talk like that. He was very like, you know, keep us going, like got us food and they set up phones for us and everything.
Q:
That was Vilani?
A:
Yes, Vilani.
Q:
EMT Morrison, do you know him or do you know where he works?
A:
He works in the 57.
Q:
Battalion 57?
A:
Right.
Q:
Did you see any other EMS people that you remember?
A:
Well, I was glad to see everybody from my station was okay because there was a couple that we still didn't know about until the end of the night because we got spread out all over the place.
Q:
When did you finally wind up catching up with Russell?
A:
Actually, I have a Nextel and he finally got a hold of me when he was in the hospital. He told me I'm in Brooklyn Hospital.
C. KAGENAAR
Q:
He was able to get you by phone.
A:
Yes. Radios, they were saying no unauthorized transmissions, only supervisors and officers got to use the radio and everything.
Q:
I guess that's about it, unless you have anything else you want to say.
A:
Well...
Q:
Feel free.
A:
I mean, everything went well. You thought it would have been chaos with everybody running around, not knowing what to do, but pretty much it was something, it was a disaster, but there was like order. There was still a chain of command.
Q:
Very good. Thanks.
A:
No problem.
MR. RADENBERG:
The time is now 1542. The interview is concluded.
File No. 9110015: EMT RUSSELL HARRIS
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Nancy Francis
R . HARRIS
MR. TAMBASCO:
Today is October 9th. My name is Mike Tambasco assigned to the World Trade Center Task Force. We're doing an interview today regarding the events of September 11 at the Trade Center. In the room with me is Investigator...
MR. RADENBERG:
Paul Radenberg.
MR. TAMBASCO:
The subject of the interview is...
EMT HARRIS:
Russell Harris, Battalion 31, Unit 31 Henry Tour 2.
Q:
Russ, if you can, just start right from the beginning and just tell me everything that you saw, you felt, you did, to the best of your memory.
A:
That particular morning, my unit that I was relieving, which was 31 Henry Tour 1, came in a little late. Ironically, they parked it at the top of the hill, which they never do. They always park down here at the garage. So by the time that we signed for our equipment and we were going out to the unit, my partner, who was Mr. Kagenaar, he happened to look over out the gate and saw that the World Trade was on fire. When he initially told me that, I thought it was a joke. I was opening up the side door and placing my equipment in because I was teching that day. I looked over as well and saw that it was on fire.
Subsequently to that the dispatcher called me maybe 30 seconds, 45 seconds later, and stated they wanted us to respond to a job. But the funny part was the job wasn't to the World Trade Center. It was at 350 Fifth Avenue, which is the Empire State Building. So my partner was driving and he clearly stated to me he didn't know Manhattan that well. So during the course of going over the bridge, he really didn't know which direction to go to. So we got off going towards Park Row, which is right in front of City Hall.
Well, by the time we passed City Hall, there was a melee of traffic and my partner had to tie on brakes for people who were running madly coming down Park Row in front of J & R. So we actually got caught and had to make that left turn and got stuck right there. As we did that, a few unmarked RMPs also were stuck. One of them was a police officer I had known. His name is Claude. He's a detective. So as I'm sitting there talking to Claude trying to figure out where he was responding and what was going on, we happened to look back at the Trade and we saw the second plane hit, bam.
At the same time, about three city buses were coming past. So we stopped the city buses and we cleared out all of the passengers and we asked the buses --
Q:
They were going downtown?
A:
They were going towards the Brooklyn Bridge. We asked the buses to sit at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge so in the event that there were any walking wounded, we could throw them on the buses and send them over the bridge. Well, as we were doing that, a Fire Lieutenant came and approached me and he asked what unit I was, and I told him, and he said all the Hazmat units are staging down at West and Vesey and he needed me to suit up.
So I explained to him that my partner wasn't Hazmat certified and I was unable to suit up. He said, don't worry. You go down there and somebody can help you suit up. I want you to go in the building. We've got a team there. We want to go in and we're doing search and rescue. So I said, well, I still can't do it. He said, look. After you do this, you don't really have a lot of patients because they're walking wounded. They're okay. I want you to just gather up, and he told me to go down to West and Vesey.
Well, at the same time, like I said, there was a melee of people running. Smoke and debris was going everywhere. So my partner once again jumped behind the wheel, we got in, put on the lights and siren, and we were able to make it down to Church and Park. At Church and Park, the FBI told us, this is our staging, this was where we had to stop, we couldn't cross their barriers. They were setting up barriers. At that time I saw everybody coming, Housing police, DEP, Corrections, court officers.
Q:
Private.
A:
Court officers. I looked back at the building and I saw all this black smoke and everything. Well, as soon as I stopped, my partner and myself, we opened the door, I got out my Hazmat equipment and I was starting to put it on the hood of the thing, of the vehicle. We had a walking wounded come and he was cut severely to his left arm and his left upper thigh.
Q:
Civilian?
A:
Civilian. He was lacerated bad. So we put him right in the bus. My partner started wrapping him up, you know, stabilizing the bleeding, took his pressure and everything, and at that time, FBI and a police Captain came and they asked me could I move my vehicle up another block and that we had a temporary triage down at St. Peter's Church, which is at Church and Barclay. So I said all right. The patient was stable, vital signs were normal. We packed him up. So I told my partner, put him in the chair. Since I have the Hazmat mask and my helmet, I'll go down there and drop him off at the church in the chair and I'll come back. So I took the patient down to the church. Once again, a Fire Lieutenant came up to me. He saw me dropping off the patient and he advised me --
Q:
If I can interrupt you one second, who was at the triage center over there?
A:
There was an FBI agent. That's the only one I saw outside. I never actually made it in the building. As I'm dropping off the patient, the FBI agent comes up to me and he says, oh, man, I just heard there's a third plane coming in. So I look at the patient, I'm at the church, and I said, well, look, there's nothing else I could do for you right now. You're here and you can hop upstairs and you can go in the church and that's where you could be safe.
As I said that and he turned around, all this black smoke started filling and I looked at the building and it started vibrating. So I was almost next to the cemetery at that time. I was on the side of the church. I looked and all this debris just started exploding everywhere, and I turned around to run and I didn't see the patient anymore, and myself and the FBI guy just started going down that block.
Q:
Were you going north?
A:
Going north over towards Broadway.
Q:
Right.
A:
So I think that was Vesey I turned down at the time because I was on the side of the church. I went up Vesey. When I got maybe halfway the block, I got knocked to the ground. My helmet got cracked. A piece of debris had hit my helmet. So I quickly got up, put the helmet back on, and I was still running. There was black smoke everywhere. I couldn't see anything. By the time I got to Broadway, I looked around the corner. Because debris was flying, I wanted to make sure I just didn't get knock unconscious, and I looked and I just saw parts of things just flying past me. So I stopped and took a deep breath and just ran across and I made a left on Broadway. By that time I made it to City Hall.
When I got to City Hall, people were -- they were just in chaos trying to climb the gates and the fences and get in. Somebody noticed I was in the Fire Department EMS uniform, so they brought this lady up to me and I was out of breath. They said this lady is having chest pains. I said, well, I don't have an ambulance. I have a radio, but I can't communicate because we were having communication problems. I said, but if she wants, she can gladly follow me because I'm going to go where you can get some help. So I guess they understood that at that time everything was all chaotic and there was nothing I could do, and everybody just started following me and I told them stay away from the larger buildings and really going into City Hall wasn't a great thing. So we all started moving downward going towards the Supreme Court.
So by the time I got to the Municipal Building and I turned around to look to see if debris had stopped falling, the second building started coming down. By that time everybody took off again. So I looked to see and I had noticed at that time I didn't know where my partner was and the radio was chaotic. I couldn't go over the radio. My partner and myself just happen to have Nextel radios, but we couldn't communicate because the satellite went down. So I said, well, as soon as I get over here, down past the courts, I'll probably be able to get a signal and I'll keep trying him.
At that time I ran into a young man named Mr. Medina. He works for Long Island College Hospital, but that day he was working up at Beth Israel. When I reflected back after speaking to him, because he came up to me, he was out of breath, he had a working cell phone and I had the working part of a radio, and he had told me he lost his partner. I said you know what? While I was standing there, I noticed a Beth Israel bus and it got crushed, so maybe you should just keep coming with me. Then I noticed I was hopping and my leg was swelling up.
Q:
The Beth Israel bus was where?
A:
The Beth Israel bus was right back at the World Trade Center.
Q:
About where you were parked?
A:
Right around the corner. But they were closer in front of the building. So he decided he would stay with me. We kept trying to communicate. We called Citywide. They referred us to RCC. We called RCC and we gave them both of our shield numbers and told them we were all right and that I was trying to get into Brooklyn to get to the hospital because my leg was just swelling up. He kept calling on his cell phone to try to update them to where we were so there wouldn't be a problem, and then he was telling them that we'd lost our partners.
By the time I got down to -- there's a park over there around Bowery, maybe a block over from the Manhattan Bridge. We sat down for a moment and debris was still coming down. It made it all the way down to that park. That's a little past Canal Street. We were able to catch our breath and get through and let them know I was fine, and he told me, if I'd be all right, he'd like to head back because he wanted to find his partner. So I told him, you go ahead, and he said, no, I can't leave you until I know you're all right.
So he walked me back towards the Manhattan Bridge and we noticed all these people going over the bridge and they were stopping the trucks and cars, and he saw private green sanitation truck and he went up to the guy and said can you take my partner in to Brooklyn so he can go to the hospital, and as he said that, some of the people overheard him and they came and they grabbed me and lifted me up and they put me in the back of the dumper in the back of the sanitation truck.
So as I'm coming over, I hear my partner come over Citywide and he says my partner is in the building. Because he heard them advise me to get dressed and go in the building, he assumed when I went to drop off the patient they took me in the building, so I was in the building. I heard him and they told him unauthorized transmission, only Chiefs and above can be on Citywide at this time. So I went back over the radio and told him I'm not crushed in the building. I'm going over the bridge. So I'm all right and I'll talk to you later.
When I got halfway over the bridge, people started looking back because this thing starts smoking again. They thought something else was going to happen. They stopped all the traffic in the middle of the bridge. So I had decided I would get off this garbage truck and keep hopping until I got into Brooklyn. Once I got off, though, I noticed there was a firefighter coming across the bridge and he was holding his radio, and he was covered in soot and he was talking on his radio but he didn't have a battery on the radio.
So we both made it about the same time to Tillary Street and this lady was driving past and she stopped and she picked me up and she brought me to the station here. I don't even know what happened to the firefighter. But once I got here, I made it the best way I could to the hospital because we didn't have any vehicles or anything. Actually, the battalion was closed off. They had it barricaded. So once they saw me coming in full of soot and everything, they opened the gate for me and let me in, and then I hobbled down here and I was advised I had to get to the hospital, and I did. By then I had noticed I had a lot of beeps and a lot of phone calls because people found out, I guess, that I was all right from the World Trade.
When I got to the hospital, everything was fine. They diagnosed me, told me I had actually torn a hamstring. But they had looked at it and they said, you know what? It's not that bad. In light of what was going on, I figured the same thing. So I returned back to work. I didn't stay out at all because I knew there were a lot more people that were worse off than myself.
So I came back to work, and by the time I got there, I noticed both of my partners who were on vacation came in because they called in and they told them I was lost at the World Trade. One came from Long Island and one came from Bay Ridge and they both came in and worked. They were sitting at the bridge in hopes that they saw me coming over the bridge, I guess.
I guess the biggest thing that I noticed was the lack of knowing what was going on, because I don't know what you could say would be worse, to actually stand there and see this? The first thing came in my mind was the movie Armageddon, and this was reality, with the black smoke 30 floors high, debris falling everywhere. Being on this side, not knowing what was going on that side, because there were people, when I was coming back over the bridge, going on motorcycles walking, people coming back this way trying to go to Manhattan, and I'm thinking to myself they must be crazy. But then there were people here that were more stressed because they couldn't get on the other side of the bridge.
So I didn't feel bad knowing that I had made it. A lot of people had guilt that I spoke to afterwards or they were just so devastated. Because I have never seen anything like that in 21 years of emergency work. But like I said, the biggest thing was to know that certain people had made it out, because everybody didn't have to make it, and that we were able to just stand up and go through all of this and still come back the next day. So I guess the biggest thing I learned was, not the salaries, not the titles, because there were no bosses anymore at the scene. We were very chaotic and I guess from M training and just love of humanitarianism, which we all have, we all were able to bring together and make it through.
Q:
Anything else you want to say, Russ?
A:
No.
Q:
I guess you said it all.
A:
Other than I'm just happy I'm here and the first thing I did was let the kids know I was all right. I was worried about debriefing everybody here, EMS and the Fire Department and the police, and we subsequently had a debriefing set up a few weeks later up at Cumberland Clinic.
Q:
Thanks, Russ.
A:
Thank you.
MR. TAMBASCO:
This interview will conclude at 1443 hours. If it wasn't mentioned, it was begun at 1423 hours.
File No. 9110016: FIREFIGHTER CRAIG MONAHAN
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Nancy Francis
C . MONAHAN
MR. CASTORINA:
Today is October 9th, 2001. I'm Ron Castorina. I'm at Engine 24, Ladder 5.
FIREFIGHTER MONAHAN:
Craig Monahan, firefighter first grade, Ladder 5.
MR. CASTORINA:
Present is --
MR. McCOURT:
Tom McCourt.
Q:
Firefighter Monahan, can you tell us on September 11th the events that took place that day, where you were working and going through all the details?
A:
I was off duty. When I saw the second plane hit, I drove into work from Staten Island. I had two other firefighters with me, Steven Altini and Joe Ray. Joe Ray and I both had our bunker gear with us because our last set of tours we had been detailed to other companies. We just so happened to have gone home with our bunker gear. Altini didn't have his.
So I rushed in, and I got here pretty quick. I parked in front of 90 West. I came through the tunnel, Battery Tunnel, parked in front of 90 West. Joe Ray and I geared up, put our gear on. We started heading north towards the towers. Altini, we left him at the rig. He started heading towards -- the command center at first. I think he ended up going back to 10 and 10 to get gear.
Anyhow, as we were walking through the streets, the West Side Highway was littered with body parts. You could identify a hand, small pieces, but obviously body parts. It had that odor. I've been through this before.
Q:
What time is this now, approximately?
A:
I have no idea.
Q:
Both towers were still up?
A:
The two towers were both standing, and they were roaring.
Q:
Both planes had hit at this point when you were there?
A:
Right. I left Staten Island at -- it wasn't my house; it was somewhere else. But I was on the south shore of Staten Island. I went into somebody's house, because they said that a plane hit the tower, and they were showing me on their TV.
As we turned it on and looked at it, the second plane hit. I knew right then that we were losing companies and mine was probably going to be one of them. So I was going in, and the other two guys came with me.
We got there really fast. I drove on the shoulder or however it took to get there. I parked in front of 90 West, left the keys in my truck in case anybody needed to move it. The highway was kind of clear as far as vehicles. There was no traffic going through. It really wasn't congested with rigs at that spot.
I saw an ambulance. Dr. Kelly was getting on the ambulance with I don't know who. They were putting someone on the ambulance. That was before we got to the south pedestrian bridge, before Liberty Street. You could see airplane parts just littered across the street, across the highway.
Joe and I walked north. My goal was to find Ladder 5, my company's rig, and try to retrace their steps and find them and help them. As we were walking past the towers, it was just unbelievable. You had to watch where you were walking. You didn't want to step on a scalp or a knee joint or something like that. There was just stuff everywhere.
We kept going north. We were just on the edge of the sidewalk. We got in front of One World Trade Center, and I looked in. It looked like it was dark in there. I had to find 5's rig. As we were going, I'm looking to see the rigs. I know we normally come down West Street. I want to find my rig, get tools, and then maybe I can trace my way in from there.
It turns out we found Squad 18 under the north pedestrian or somewhere around there, and we got masks. We took masks off of there. We were looking for tools. All we got was a couple of masks.
Just north of that pedestrian bridge before Vesey, we found Ladder 5. It was parked in the middle of the highway, right up against the divider.
Q:
Can you mark that on the map, where it was parked?
A:
5 Truck was right here.
Q:
Just write "5 Truck."
A:
That's where it was when we got there. The tormenters weren't down.
Q:
Put "05" or something like that right next to it.
A:
It was just parked. It was running. But the tormenters weren't down. It wasn't close enough to ladder the building.
As we're looking through the rig to try to get a Halligan or some tools, some construction workers or I don't know if they were civilians. They were employees I think somewhere down there, and they came running over to us saying there's a chief that needs to get down. There was a chief up on the mezzanine area right on the corner of Vesey and West.
I got in the truck. I pulled the tiller wheel in position so that all Joe had to do was sit up there and hold that wheel. I was going to back Ladder 5 close enough to this mezzanine area so that we could put up the aerial ladder to get him down and whoever else he had up there.
We did that. We backed it up. We got it close enough. We laddered the building. We put the aerial up, and that's it. Basically that's it.
Q:
Who was the chief there?
A:
I didn't get his name.
Q:
When you got there he was still there?
A:
He was still up there. I don't know if he came down our aerial or what. That was right about when the first building came down. We put the aerial up.
Q:
Could you put on there where you moved it to? Was it pretty close to where it was originally?
A:
We moved it this way, right there.
Q:
So basically just as you got it in place, that's when the building started coming down?
A:
We got it in place, and then we got off the turntable. We were looking for tools again. Then all of a sudden you heard something, and it sounded like a Harrier jet was landing right over top of us. Sure enough that second tower was just coming straight down.
It was sick. I didn't think I was going to survive. It was really a sick sight and a really sick sound.
Q:
What did you do?
A:
I said, "Let's go, Joe. We're going to dive under this engine there." There was an engine, I think it was at Vesey and West, I think it was right on the corner by the median, and we ran to it and we dove underneath it. We ran to it, ran around it and dove underneath it, because we figured we were going to get covered and that's our best chance.
Although debris fell around us, the main structure felt as if -- we were lucky. When it sounded like the explosion stopped, the steel hitting, when it all seemed to stop, this just like a fire storm of wind and material, a sandstorm kind of, just came and wailed by, really flew past us quick.
We huddled and stayed in place, and we threw our masks on. I knew which way was north, so we started walking north to try to get out of that storm. Eventually it cleared. It was probably 20 minutes. It's hard to say, because it seems like to me that all of the time frames, how many minutes it took me to get there, I couldn't tell you. It's just like everything is just one. Your mind is playing games.
Q:
Most people have the same problem.
A:
I would like to ask you guys questions, you know, the times of what happened, piece my life together.
Together Joe and I walked north on West Street, and we found an engine company, hooked it up to a hydrant, and we fired the stag to try to knock down some of the smoke just so that we could see. We did that for a short time.
Q:
Was there a lot of burning debris around or anything?
A:
Not that we were able to hit. But there was a parking lot I think on the corner of Vesey. I'm not sure. I think it was the corner of Vesey and West. I'm pretty sure, yeah. On the southwest corner of Vesey and West, there was a parking lot that was just roaring. Every car was transmitting to the next car. This was between the two collapses, I think.
I went over there. I took a saw off of some fire truck, some ladder company -- I don't know -- and took a metal-cutting blade. There were two fences between the highway and this parking lot. I cut the fences and, with an engine company, advanced the line and started knocking down those fires.
Once that line was in place, that engine was in control, they didn't need me. So that's when I started making my way back down to try to get inside the rubble.
Q:
Did you get any direction from anybody at all or were you kind of like working on your own? Did you meet with any chiefs or lieutenants?
A:
I saw chiefs. Yeah, I ran into chiefs, and they were all telling me to get lost: "You ought to just go north." But I didn't really want to do that because I know my guys are in there.
I left the saw there. I left that engine company. I figured they don't need me to put these cars out. I started walking back towards the towers. Then, bam, the next one started coming down. I just couldn't believe it.
Q:
Where were you when the next one started coming down? How far away were you?
A:
I think I was north of Vesey. I might have been closer to -- between Vesey and Barclay on West Street.
Q:
You were by yourself at this point?
A:
I had Joe with me. We had lost each other and then got back together, I think. Your mind plays games with you when you see this kind of shit. I know we were together when the second one fell also. After that one came down, we walked north again.
We met up with an engine company. They were just staying by a hydrant and spraying the water, trying to knock the smoke down. They were just going to stay there. We hung out with them for a minute.
Then, I don't know, that's when I lost Joe, after the two towers were down. I knew he wasn't in the collapse. Somehow in the dark we lost each other. I headed back down -- well, that's it. That's all you want to know, the two towers.
Q:
Well, you can go on a little bit.
A:
I came back down, and I went to five, and it was crushed with steel and all kinds of crap. I didn't see anybody in it or under it or around it. So I started making my way towards the pedestrian bridge, and I saw that the bridge had come down substantially. But there was about four feet -- there was a void underneath the pedestrian bridge where you could see the street. So I climbed under. I went under and went into the pile and started looking for guys and everything. There was just nothing to find. Everything was the same color.
That's all you guys want to know; right?
Q:
You covered it all. Anything else you want to add?
A:
That's it.
MR. CASTORINA:
The time is 12:50. This concludes the interview.
File No. 9110017: LIEUTENANT GREGG HANSSON
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Laurie A. Collins
G . HANSON
MR. CASTORINA:
This is Ron Castorina, working with Thomas McCourt. We are at Engine 24. The time now is 11:10. The date is October 9th, 2001.
Your name, sir?
LIEUTENANT HANSSON:
Lieutenant Gregg Hansson.
MR. CASTORINA:
Where are you assigned?
LIEUTENANT HANSSON:
Engine 24.
Q:
Can you tell us what happened on September 11th?
A:
Sure. I believe the call came in somewhere around 8:47, when the tower was first hit. I hopped on the rig. We had an extra man with us. It was myself, Firefighter Ottrando. John Ottrando was the chauffeur. We had a probationary trainee Firefighter Byrne, probationary Firefighter Sterling, Firefighter Claes, and Firefighter Billy.
I believe we were responding on second alarm, which was the initial second alarm. I'm not sure what due we were. We responded down Varick Street, which turns into West Broadway. We came down into Vesey, made a right onto Vesey and made a left onto West Street. We parked at the corner of West and Vesey, where my chauffeur was going to hook up to a standpipe.
Obviously we noticed smoke coming up from the north tower. Me and my four men proceeded with our rollups, the standpipe kit, up the stairs into the lobby of the One World Trade Center, which was the north tower building.
Q:
Is that standard procedure or were you given direction by anybody there?
A:
No, there were no directions at that time to do that. That seemed like standard procedure to me in a high-rise building.
At the time I did not know what had transpired, whether that was a plane or some type of explosion.
Upon entering the Trade Center, we went through the revolving doors but noticed that all the glass was out. So we could have gone right through the building.
At the northwest corner I believe is the Port Authority command post. Deputy Chief Hayden was there already with his aide. There were several other units on the scene. It was understood that all the elevators were out at that time.
We waited for direction, at which time a battalion chief did come over. I don't know which battalion chief it was. He was speaking with Lieutenant Fischer Ladder 20. I was standing next to Lieutenant Fischer, and he asked what staircase he was going to use. I'm not sure what Lieutenant Fischer said, but I was then assigned to go up with Ladder 20 as a team.
I believe we followed a Port Authority police officer. We went past the elevator banks. You could see that they were all blown out. We went over to stairway A, which was the southeast corner area. There were many civilians self-evacuating at the time. We got the evacuees into a single file to come down, and we single-filed our way up.
We made our way up somewhere between the 15th and 20th floor, at which time we saw one woman, a black woman, with burns along her arms. In the same vicinity we were met with a woman who was having severe respiratory distress, which was likely caused by an asthma condition. She was with a civilian who stated he was from the 90th floor, and he had a large gash to his forehead.
We took her off the stairway and into the hall. I tried to call for an urgent, but at that time I realized that quite a number of maydays and urgents had already been given for many civilians and also for firefighters who were having trouble breathing already or having chest pains.
Q:
What floor are you on at this time when you pulled her off?
A:
I believe we were around 20.
Q:
20?
A:
Somewhere in the vicinity of 20.
At that time we had her lying down. She was breathing but having some trouble. We didn't have any oxygen with us, and there wasn't much we could do. I realized we weren't going to get any help, so we just monitored the situation.
I questioned the guy from the 90th floor, who said it was a plane. That's when I first realized that we had a plane up there. He said there was a fireball on the 90th floor and a lot of smoke on the 90th floor.
He got to a room where there was about eight people, and he said the eight people did eventually get out. He stated to me that he believed everyone from the 90th floor had gotten out.
She started to feel better, and she said she was ready to descend again.
Q:
What were the conditions in the stairway?
A:
The conditions in the stairway were absolutely clear. There was no smoke whatsoever. Occasionally on the hallways you could see a light haze, but that wasn't on every -- some were totally clear. Some had a very light haze. But the stairways were totally clear. All the civilians looked fine except for the ones I just indicated.
So we left that civilian from the 90th floor, that gentleman, he assisted the woman down. We continued our way up. I believe Ladder 20 had gotten off with us on that floor and were taking a rest.
We continued up until I believe the 27th floor. My men started to become pretty exhausted at that point. Again we took another rest at the 27th floor with Ladder 20. There was a couple civilians with a woman in a wheelchair.
At that time I ordered Firefighter Billy to stay with her and if he got any assistance from any units on the way up that he could descend with her. But at that point I said for him to just stand fast.
I don't know how long we were there for, maybe five minutes. Then we continued our way up again, eventually reaching the 35th floor. Again, we were still with Ladder 20. On the 35th floor I spotted Engine 33, and I spotted Ladder 5. There was also a battalion chief, which I'm not positive but one of my members has indicated he believed he was the battalion chief from Battalion 11.
We also had a couple EMS workers up there. I did see one firefighter lying in the hallway in the elevator area, lying on his back. He was being administered oxygen. Everybody else that I did speak to indicated that they were doing okay.
Basically we were taking water, iced tea or whatever, and the battalion was setting up a staging area at that point. So again we were taking another break.
I then spoke with the Engine 33 officer, which was Lieutenant Pfeifer. We were trying to formulate a plan with the battalion chief as to how we were going to get up somewhere around the 90th floor, being that we were already exhausted at this point.
I don't know if that's important or not, but our idea was to take only four rollups out of the eight men we had instead of the eight rollups. My estimate is that we might have been on that floor between five and ten minutes. I would say at least five minutes.
I was in the vicinity of the battalion chief, who was on the command channel, when I heard a mayday given over the command channel to evacuate the building. He started to tell everyone to evacuate, as I did also. I saw all the units get up. Everybody got their gear. Everybody started for the staircases to evacuate.
Ladder 5 I know for a fact had been going down stairway B, which was in the elevator bank in the middle of the building. Engine 33 -- I'm not positive but I believe they went to stairway C, which I believe was the southwest corner. I went back to my men with Ladder 20 to stairway A.
Still in the hallway, we heard a big shake in the building. It's my belief that was tower two coming down. I'm not positive, but you could definitely feel an incredible shake.
Q:
Did you hear any explosion or anything from the first?
A:
I didn't. Some people stated to me that there was at that time, but I can't recall actually hearing.
Q:
You were at the 35th floor --
A:
We were at the 35th floor.
Q:
-- when you decided to evacuate and got the mayday.
A:
Right.
Some people have indicated that that was the 37th floor, but I believe it was the 35th.
Q:
Do you know what time?
A:
I have no idea what time frame that was. But if in fact that was the tower coming down, it was 10:06.
At this point I do not know that the second tower was hit by a plane, nor do I know that that's the second tower being hit. I did hear on my way up transmissions from Ladder 3, which was Captain Brown. I did hear him communicating with somebody. I assume it was with the command post or some chief. I have no idea.
Q:
Where was Captain Brown?
A:
I'm not sure where Captain Brown was. I had assumed he was in the first building, because they were from Ladder 3, and I assume they would have been coming down on the initial alarm to the first. I'm sure you will find out in your interviews. I've heard and I thought he might have been as high as in the 60s, but I don't think that's correct. I did hear after that that he might have been in the 40s of tower one.
I thought he gave a mayday, and I thought he stated that there was an interior collapse. But again I'm not positive of that.
On the way down I could hear them calling for Ladder 3. Then they would call specifically for Pat Brown. There was no response from Ladder 3 whatsoever from that point.
The chief had directed us, after this big loud shaking, to get in the stairways. At that time I was with Lieutenant Fischer and my men. I believe two of his men had gone up, before this shake, had gone up. He was obviously upset at them for going up. He was screaming at them for them to get back down. Then he went up to go get them. At that time I ordered my men, "Let's get out." So we started to get out.
I lost contact with Firefighter Claes at that time. I thought he was ahead of me. I found out later that he had gotten out of the building much sooner than we did.
We got down to 27, where I went to pick up Firefighter Billy that I had left off there.
Q:
He was still there?
A:
He was still there with the woman in the wheelchair.
At that time Firefighter Byrne had indicated to me that he left his mask up on the 35th floor. So I ordered him to leave the building, to stop for no one, being that he had no mask.
So now I was with Firefighter Sterling and Firefighter Billy. A couple people, civilians, indicated to me that there was an elevator that was working at this time. But I had already gotten transmissions over the air that some elevators had already crashed down to the first floor. I told them no one is getting in an elevator.
There was another officer there. Firefighter Billy indicated to me that he might have been the captain of Engine 21. We discussed how to remove the woman, and I believe he said to me that he's going to take her down with his company. They went to stairway B. I said, "Okay, Rich, come with me and let's continue on down stairway A." We went down stairway A.
We got down to the third floor, and the third floor was partially blocked by some sheetrock. We started to move that when a firefighter from Squad 18 -- I believe his name is Kelly. He is alive. I've seen him since. He said to me that you can't get down that staircase, there's no exit that way, and he needed help with a civilian.
There was on that floor now -- on this particular floor all the lights were out. We had a rather large gentleman, I would say maybe 300 pounds or so, a civilian, who was for some reason incapable of walking. He was on the ground. We assisted him in trying to remove this guy. We made our way to stairway C, I believe.
We were having quite a difficult time trying to remove this guy. There were a couple Port Authority police officers. They might have been ESU. I have no idea. We finally managed with great difficulty to get this guy down to the first floor, and we were directed by Port Authority police officers to the lobby area of the north side of the Trade Center, which was a couple of doors right in the middle.
We had two officers there who said, "Hold up. There's people jumping out of the building and there's a lot of debris coming down." They were actually looking up outside the building when we were still in the lobby. They said it was okay to go, and we started to bring this guy across.
At that time we were with I believe the officer of Engine 15, which was Lieutenant Foder. I believe he had at least two men with him. It was myself, my two men, the Squad 18 guy, and I believe I saw a guy from Rescue 5. I think his name was Firefighter Spade, who made it also. There were at least four police officers.
We started to go across. There was a little overhang there for the Customs building. We made it across to that, under that overhang. The civilian just kept on tripping over debris. There was debris everywhere.
Q:
What was the condition? It was still heavy smoke?
A:
You had a visibility of about 10 to 15 feet, I figure. To me, it looked like a whiteout. There was a lot of debris on the ground. It seems to me it might have been the sheeting of the Trade Center. A lot of that you saw. This guy kept on tripping over it.
I went ahead of, I believe, Lieutenant Foder and Firefighter Kelly from Squad 18. At that point we're assisting the civilian, trying to hold him up. At that point I got rid of my mask. We were outside the building. We were all pretty exhausted by that point too. I went ahead of them to remove debris. We were at this point right here. I don't know if you can see that.
Q:
Okay.
A:
That's basically where we were. Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation, that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off.
I was, I believe, ahead of the rest of the firefighters and officers there. I made it to the corner, and I took about four running steps this way when you could feel the rush of the wind coming at you. I believed that that was a huge fireball coming at the time.
I then hit the deck into the side of the building and basically waited it out. We were all hit with debris. At that point it was a total blackout. You couldn't see anything. All this glass already had been taken out.
I found out that those guys there that were behind me had jumped into World Trade Center six when this came down. I was in the courtyard over here. I got hit by a lot of debris at that point, but I guess within seconds or a minute it was over.
I was still okay. I got myself up. I had no mask at the time. All I had was my flashlight. There was dead silence. You couldn't hear anybody. No transmissions over the radio. There were craters all over the place. You were in the middle of this cloud that was fairly suffocating, so I had no idea how much longer I was going to be able to stay in there.
I wound up crawling for a ways, and I finally saw a flashlight. I don't know if there's a staircase here, but I saw a flashlight and I saw someone calling, "This is the way out. This is the way out." I made my way to that staircase, got myself out, and I don't know where I came out. I think I might have come out this way and over to Church Street.
At that point I saw Firefighter Byrne when I got out into the street. There was nobody else around for blocks. I could hear Firefighter Billy calling a mayday at that point. I tried to respond to him over the radio and tried to direct him out. He didn't respond again to me.
I then looked for help to get a mask, to get a search rope of some sort to try to go back in there. There was nobody around. We went several blocks, I don't know how far, when I finally found Ladder 164's rig.
All my maydays went unanswered. I got on Ladder 164's rig. I called the dispatcher, gave the dispatcher the mayday, told them that both myself and Byrne were out of the building and I was missing the rest of my company. I said I don't know where the command post is, but there is nobody around.
Q:
Byrne was with you the whole time?
A:
From that point. On the 27th floor, I had told Byrne to leave.
Q:
Right. You hooked up with --
A:
I hooked up with him again at this point.
Q:
Who was the one with the flashlight that you saw think you saw leading you out?
G. HANSON
A:
That was a police officer. It could have been the Port Authority or it could have been ESU.
Q:
When you were outside you were by yourself?
A:
On the initial collapse?
Q:
When you were outside. When you came around.
A:
I was by myself at that point.
Q:
And then you picked up Byrne?
A:
On the street somewhere.
We walked several blocks, but then we found an ambulance and we saw Safety Chief King in the ambulance. I started to ask him what happened. That's when he told me both towers are down. I didn't even know that had happened, but that's what it was.
Eventually we made our way over to Engine 7, Ladder 1's quarters. A triage area had just started to be set up. There was a doctor there, and she took a look at me. She said, "Your throat's extremely red. We have to get you to a hospital."
I called the dispatcher again from the department phone there, indicated again where I was. They provided no other information to me.
Soon after that then an ambulance came, they picked me up and they transported me to Forest Hills, where I stayed until about 4:00, when I finally got a ride back to the city.
I made my way back to quarters here. Sometime around midnight I went back down. Byrne stayed at Engine 7. We all eventually --
Q:
Byrne didn't go to the hospital?
A:
What?
Q:
Byrne didn't go to the hospital?
A:
Byrne didn't go to the hospital at that time.
Q:
You decided respiratory difficulties, no injuries?
A:
Yeah, as it turned out. I mean, other than minor scrapes and stuff, I was all right. That's pretty much the most I can remember.
Q:
The rest of the company, what --
A:
The rest of my company turned out to be okay. You can speak to Marcel in a few minutes.
G. HANSON
From what he told me, he had gotten out all the way to the rig, Engine 24's rig again, and he operated all day from there. He did receive burns to his back area when he had taken off his coat. Then all this stuff started to happen.
Ottrando was the chauffeur. All he stated to me was that when they started coming down, the big cloud, he just started running north, and I believe he operated most of the day.
Firefighter Billy and Sterling got themselves out also from the area that I also had been in, and Billy was eventually taken to Downtown Hospital. Somewhere around 4 p.m. I started to find out that they were okay, but that was -- I'm sure you guys know there wasn't much information. There was nobody around.
Q:
Yeah, right.
A:
The only other thing I can remember that I might have left out is on the 35th floor there were a couple civilians. I believe there was a civilian in a wheelchair on the 35th floor at that staging area. When we started to evacuate, I believe she was going down the B staircase where Ladder 5 was. It's speculation at this point, but I believe they were assisting her.
We did find most of those members from Ladder 5 two days later in a staircase with two civilians.
I did leave another thing out. After the 27th floor, we were coming down. I got stopped again around 17. At the 17th floor, a firefighter came into the staircase and said, "I need some help with a room full of civilians."
As it turned out, I came out of the A staircase, I went down to that room. I left my men there. I went down there. There was, it looked to me, about 15 firefighters and about maybe 10 civilians in this room on the --
Q:
17th floor.
A:
Southwest side. I kind of stated generally that we have to evacuate the building, "Let's go." I was approached by someone -- and I saw Pfeifer there from 33 Engine. I also saw someone from Rescue 3. I'm not sure if he was the officer or not. I thought he was the officer, but he might not have been.
He took me aside. He took out a window on that floor, showed me West Street, and that's when I saw the damage done on West Street. I could still see several rigs, but you could see all the debris also.
I again said, "I think we've got to get ourselves out." He said, "I'm not sure we can get out." I said, "We've got to try." I again generally said, "Let's go, everyone, let's get out." I did see some people go to the C staircase. I went back and got my men at the A staircase and descended down. Then eventually I hit the third floor, where I teamed up with that guy from Squad 18.
I think that was it.
MR. CASTORINA:
The time now is 11:37. This concludes the interview of Lieutenant Hansson at Engine 24.
File No. 9110018: FIREFIGHTER MARCEL CLAES
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Maureen McCormick
Claes
MR. CASTORINA:
The date is October 9, 2001. The time is 11:47. I'm Ron Castorina. I'm at Engine 24, interviewing -- your name, sir?
FIREFIGHTER CLAES:
Marcel Claes, firefighter 1st Grade, Engine 24.
MR. CASTORINA:
And your name.
MR. MC COURT:
Also present is Tom McCourt.
Q:
And on September 11, 2001, can you tell he what your assignment was that day?
A:
My original assignment was in Ladder 5. I had a mutual with Paul Keating, but the engine was short that day, so they -- it was common practice to go back into the engine, being I'm an engine man.
So the call came in, and we got on the rig. We responded going south on Varick Street, and I said to the nozzle man when I saw the damage, "That's got to be an explosion," not realizing that it was hit by a plane.
We pulled up to -- I believe we went down Canal Street and went along West Street south, and we ended up parked on West and Vesey Street. There was a sprinkler system, a siamese for the sprinkler right there.
We went to the lobby of 1 World Trade, and when we got there, we saw a lot of damage in the lobby around the elevator banks, and we found -- I found out that it was hit by a plane, thinking it was an accident.
So we proceeded up with other engine companies and truck companies in Stairwell A. After a dozen floors or so, we started to take breaks every four floors. We didn't realize it was hit by -- we didn't realize 2 World Trade was hit by an airplane, so we kept going up. It was single file, civilians going down and firemen going up.
The civilians were orderly and blessing us and helping the injured down. I checked the standpipe a few times on the way up. We made it up to the -- I believe the 35th story. We were taking a breather. I was on my knees, catching my breath, and we were discussing -- we were going to hook up with another engine company to make it up there -- easier to get up there. We were going to have some guys just take cylinders and the other guys take hoses, but we felt this rumble and this noise, like a train was going through your living room. Felt like an earthquake.
A few minutes later, a chief -- someone told me he believed it was 11 battalion -- said to drop everything and get out, get out. He didn't say why. He just said, "Drop everything and get out." Probably said it a couple of times.
So basically, that's what guys did. I went back and got my coat, my cylinder, and my standpipe kit, and I was the last one to go down from my company, but they ended up -- we got separated because I found out later that one of our -- Richard Billy was on the 27th story in the hallway with a woman in, I believe, a wheelchair, and the rest of the company went in to get him.
I continued down, not realizing that they stopped at the 27th Floor. I made my way down to around the 10th Floor. Someone said go to Stairway B, so I went down. I went to B. I saw Faust with Battalion 8. I asked him did he see anybody from 24 engine. He said no. I continued down.
I made it to the lobby. I did see a woman walking real slow. I walked behind them. She was being helped. I don't remember if it was a fireman or EMT. I got -- I just wanted to get some fresh air, so I went around them. I made it to the lobby.
I saw building employees running around. There was a lot of debris in the lobby. I went out the same way I came in. That was on the northwest corner of tower -- 1 World Trade.
Q:
On the map on there?
A:
I went out a window that was taken out, because I knew my engine was parked on that side. I made it out to the -- I saw a man in the courtyard. He was waving me out, like come on out, get out of there. I didn't look up. I just went out to the street.
When I got out to the street, I looked up, not believing what I was looking at. I saw three people jump out of the building, and it started to collapse, and I took off north on West Street. I made it behind an engine. I was only carrying my coat. I had time to put it over my head. I was at the back step with another fireman. I don't know who it was.
Finally when the dust cleared, I started walking north on West Street for a couple of blocks. I didn't see the rest of my company. I saw some members from Ladder 8, and I decided to go back to the engine, because it was still running when I went out the first time, so when I went back to Engine 24, which was parked on Vesey and West, it was still running, but the supply line was severed and there was a lot of dust and debris on the ground.
It was -- I believe Engine 239 was a couple of blocks north on West Street, who were originally supplying 24 engine. They --
Q:
Can you mark on the map where you believe Engine 239 was?
A:
I'm only guessing that they were up the block.
Q:
Where was the chauffeur from 24? He was still at the rig or he --
A:
I didn't see the chauffeur. I don't know what happened to anybody. That's why I went back to the engine, hoping that I'd find somebody from my company.
I got no response on the radio. I found out later they went to the hospital, and I didn't -- I didn't know where the chauffeur was, so I went back to 24 engine. I went back to the engine. It was still running, still hooked up to the Siamese.
Firemen were taking hand lines off, so I had to boost the tank. They were looking for people, and they needed precautionary lines. Actually, it was over here, 24 engine. I stayed with the engine, 239. I believe -- yeah, it was an officer, I think, from 239, and his men that were -- he supplied me -- it took a while, but we found the first lengths. At one point, we were putting out ground fire with the first lengths.
There wasn't much pressure, because when I did get resupplied finally, I hooked up to a tower ladder, I believe 12, that was parked or maybe they moved it, Ladder 12. They operated up Vesey Street because a lot of rubble over there and ground fire, you know, going over here.
It was like ground fire and rubble that was on fire, so I just stayed right at the engine hoping somebody would show up from the company, at least they'd find me, but I just felt I had to do something, so I -- you know, I made sure that those hand lines and -- you know, I was -- I felt I was being useful just by manning the pumps.
At one point, a rescue company came by, and they walked into the -- you know, this is after the collapses. They walked in. I guess they did their thing. I guess they were -- actually I don't know what they were doing. They must have got off. You know, they were off that day and went back to the company to gear up and made it there on their own.
Q:
How was your breathing with all the dust and the debris?
A:
Oh, at the -- after the collapse, I was gagging behind the engine, and there was -- my throat was caked up with this stuff. I almost threw up. Couldn't see the hand in front of my face.
Eventually the dust cleared. That's -- and after that, I picked up my cylinder and my coat and went up West Street, north on West Street, but then I came back after my eyes were all itchy.
Q:
Smoke got cleared a little bit when you went back?
A:
Yeah. After the dust cleared, I went back and operated the engine. I wasn't in any condition to climb through the rubble, but I felt, you know, I was being useful at manning the engine.
Q:
Right.
A:
Because of the ground fire. They ended up taking a multiversal tower ladder and two hand lines. I believe the hand lines were mostly because there was guys operating, searching over the terrace.
Let me see. There is like a terrace here and then the building. This building ended up -- there was a lot of rubble over here, of course. I guess that's between 8 World Trade and 1 World Trade that was on fire. This building -- I was watching the fire, started in this corner.
Q:
Which building was that?
A:
8 World Trade, U.S. Customs building, and I guess about six stories, and it was on the 5th Floor, and then it just went from south to north in the course of the day. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members.
Q:
Did you end up going to the hospital or were you injured in any way or --
A:
Yeah. When I was running, some hot stuff went down by back, because I didn't have time to put my coat back on, and I had some -- well, I guess between first and second degree burns on my back, ended up in the crack of my ass, and that's where the worst -- the worst ones turned out to be, because I was covering myself, and I couldn't -- it finally settled.
Q:
Went down to your back?
A:
Yeah, in my bunker pants.
Q:
Did you get any first-aid?
A:
I did. About four o'clock -- no, actually, I got some first-aid by some EMTs that were parked, I think on Vesey -- yeah, at the intersection of Vesey and West I got some first-aid.
Q:
This was how much after?
A:
A few hours afterwards. A few hours afterwards, because I was going to get to some water. I ran out of cigarettes. I was hoping to grub a cigarette.
Q:
I'm with you.
A:
All right. So I did get some first-aid earlier in the day, but finally after 3:30, quarter to four, I was feeling nauseous, and I wasn't sure why. I thought maybe the burns were affecting me somehow, so I ended up going to the triage at Stuyvesant High School, and I found -- I was looking for the command post, and there were a lot of firemen, I guess who came after the fact.
I got to triage. They put some cream on my burns and flushed out my eyes for the first time, and I -- like my eyes -- I mean, I had great glasses to read, but I used to be able to read the paper with good light, but I couldn't even do that for a couple of weeks. They finally got better.
And then I sat around. I found out the rest of the guys were okay. They went to the hospital. I saw the chauffeur there. That was at Stuyvesant High School. Well, actually it was on West Street right outside Stuyvesant High School. They thought -- they were relieved, because they thought I was missing.
I did see members that came after the fact that were -- you know, but they weren't from the company. They came from home, but I guess they stayed looking for members that were missing and never went back to where the triage was by Stuyvesant High School.
What else? So by six o'clock I decided let me go home. I called my wife finally, because the phones weren't working around ground zero, so I found someone with a phone at four o'clock. I called home, and she was relieved, and I sat around there to rest, and I walked to the firehouse, and I made it to Canal Street, and I saw another fireman, a messenger I believe he was, and he drove me to the firehouse, and I took a shower and talked to the guys for awhile, and I was hoping they would find guys from Ladder 8 -- Ladder 5, rather, and that's that.
The next day I came back just to see what was going on. I was in no condition to go back there. And I worked Thursday. I was -- it was 24 on, 24 off. So I came in Thursday morning, and we didn't even have a fire truck until earlier that afternoon.
The shops did a great job fixing it up. It was missing gauges, the gauges on the pump, and the windshield was broken, and cabinet doors were bent. It was missing a lot of hose and tools. So we got it back that afternoon. We cleaned it up Thursday afternoon.
I believe they took it to the Sanitation Department, and they power washed it, and we got it back here. We had to hose the inside out, and we stocked it with whatever we had in the tool shed, and we went back in service around six o'clock that night.
We didn't have many runs, but I think that was the only operating engine covering lower Manhattan, except for the one that was operating within the collapse zone, the ground zero.
We did go back Thursday night. Was it Thursday? I think yeah, we did go back. It was our turn to good back to ground zero, and all I did was fill buckets with dust and debris. It rained that night, so we went back to the -- after a number of hours, we went back to the firehouse.
I was up all night, and Friday morning I went to the medical office, and they gave me a prescription for antibiotics, told me to keep -- it was starting to get infected, my burns, so they told me -- they put me on light duty.
So Saturday I came back to the firehouse, and I was due to work at my light-duty position at Rac 5 Sunday morning. I went home -- when I got home Monday morning, we started with wakes and funerals all that week, because they did recover guys from Ladder 5, so we were off.
Basically, I didn't come back to the firehouse until the following week. The following week after Greg Sausito's memorial Mass, and then we were on -- when I was scheduled to come back to work. They went back to the regular schedule.
And that's about it.
MR. CASTORINA:
The time concludes this interview is 12:05.
File No. 9110019: LIEUTENANT BRIAN BECKER
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Maureen McCormick
B. BECKER
MR. MURAD:
The date is October 9, 2001. The time is 12 o'clock, 1200 hours, and this is Murray Murad from the New York City Fire Department.
MR. CUNDARI:
George Cundari.
MR. MURAD:
I'm conducting an interview with the following lieutenant.
THE WITNESS:
Brian Becker, Engine 28, Group 22.
MR. MURAD:
The New York City Fire Department. We are currently at Engine 28, Ladder --
THE WITNESS:
MR. MURAD:
-- 11, regarding the events of September 11, 2001.
Presently there is no one else in the interview room, and we will be conducting the interview with Lieutenant Becker.
Q:
Lieutenant, would you like to give the story of what -- your accounts of what took place on that tragic day.
A:
Okay.
Q:
And your role.
A:
I had relieved the lieutenant from the night tour. He had left -- I was in the kitchen with the other firemen. I was standing up with a cup of coffee, and I heard a loud explosion. It sounded like it was coming from the back of the firehouse. I thought it was north of the firehouse.
I put down my coffee, and I said to the guys, "I think we're going to work. That was an explosion." So walking out to the apparatus, we heard the voice alarm came over and said there was an explosion in the World Trade Center. So we were putting on our boots, getting ready. The engine was dispatched on the box. The time was 8:48.
I knew right away. I felt right away it was -- I remembered thinking they got us this time, because I heard the explosion, so I knew it was a large explosion, and the World Trade Center, so I figured we were on route to a big disaster.
There was never a doubt in my mind, as I recall, that it was anything other than a terrorist attack.
We went east on Houston Street to the FDR, down the FDR Drive, and by the time we were approaching the Brooklyn Bridge, we could see the tower. We could see fire lapping out of the tower. Seemed like all four sides.
I guess we could see two or three sides from the FDR Drive and could see fire lapping out of multiple floors from about three quarters of the way up the building.
We made our way around the Battery, plowing through traffic, and made our way up West Street past the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. We saw -- on arrival, we saw a lot of debris in the street on West Street. I could see what seemed to be -- coming down the FDR, I could see both towers, but I could see -- I only saw the fire in the north tower. The other one hadn't been struck. I'm sure of that.
We saw a lot of debris in the street as we came up, and I was concerned. I could see what seemed to be remains of bodies in the street. I told the chauffeur to stay as far to the left as he could, because I didn't want to get hit with a body in the cab and die right there. I remember thinking that.
We drove just past One World Trade Center, and we stopped under the pedestrian overpass, just north of the -- we got in a sheltered spot. We dismounted the apparatus. I'd say that was right here. We stopped.
Q:
This is where the apparatus was, on West Street?
A:
Right, I would say we stopped just about underneath there. Underneath -- if that's a pedestrian walk --
Q:
Right.
A:
-- we stopped the apparatus under there just to stay out of shelter, because I figured there were jumpers, and I figured it was a very dangerous place to stop, so we stopped under the overpass.
We got off the rig. I asked the chauffeur, "Where are you headed?" He said -- whatever he said, he ended up hooking up on Barclay and West Broadway. That's just north of 7 World Trade Center, which it all interconnected, we think. You know, I'm pretty sure. Or maybe he was on Vesey. I'm not --
Q:
Between Barclay and Vesey he parked?
A:
Okay.
Q:
He parked there.
A:
As we were heading into the building, one of the guys said -- we were very excited and very pumped up, and it was a terrible situation. It was like a battlefield. It wasn't -- we kept it together, but we were -- as we were heading in, one of the guys, I forget who, said, "I forgot my mask." So we were delayed. I said, "well, you got to get your mask. We'll wait for you here under the overpass."
So we probably waited about 30 seconds or a minute or so. I would say 30 seconds to a minute while he ran to the rig, which was still, I guess, blocked by traffic and pulled his mask off, so we stayed as a unit. That delayed us for a few seconds.
All these things contributed, I think, to our survival. That's why I mentioned that, because, you know, every little -- every second made a difference.
Q:
At that time, the rig was still on West Street and --
A:
Well, I guess it was like a few -- a few -- maybe -- you know, there was traffic and a lot of -- you know, it was rush hour still, so he hadn't made the corner. He hadn't -- anything like that, so I would say 30 seconds to a minute.
So I grouped with the other firefighters under the overpass, and we gave him riding positions, and I gave the senior man the nozzle and things, and then when the other guy came back, we said, "Okay, let's make it a direct route right into the -- let's move fast."
So we moved into 1 World Trade Center from that northern pedestrian overpass, from underneath that, so we took the shortest route, and I think we just went in a window. I think the glass was blown out there.
I remember getting the impression that the elevators were blown out, and I kind of can verify that, because a chief grabbed me by the shoulder, and he said, "Engine 28, you're teaming up with Engine 4 and just take four roll-ups and head up."
I don't know who the chief was. There was no command. It was chaos in the lobby.
Q:
Can I just interrupt? Was there any communication at that point from the time you got off the rig and you waited for the other firefighter to get his gear and the 30 seconds?
Was there any radio transmissions or was there any direction?
A:
Nothing that I recall. Honestly, nothing directed to us for certain, and we didn't direct anything. I didn't speak with them, because I knew I bounced the first division for years, and I responded to the World Trade Center several times, so I knew the procedure, you know.
Even though this wasn't typical at all, I was still going on that I knew I was going to report into the lobby command post. I knew where it was.
So we got into the -- like I was saying, when the chief grabbed me by the shoulders, he said, "Take four roll-ups only between the two companies. Team up with Engine 4 and start your way up," and I remember specifically asking him how are we going up, and I remember thinking that it was a stupid question, because I knew the elevators were blown out, but I just asked it anyway, just in case he knew something I didn't know, and he said, "You're walking."
I have an impression of smoke around the elevators, and bent doors, and it was pretty -- the lobby was pretty devastated. I don't remember who that chief was.
So we teamed up with Engine 4. I knew the officer, Joe Farrelly, so we were talking, making small talk and making our way up, and about two or three levels up, there were a lot of civilians coming down, and it was very -- pushing through them, so heavy traffic against us, and I saw a building personnel person, and I said, "Is there a better staircase?" And he goes, "Yes, there is. I'll take you to another one." He took us up maybe one or two more levels, either to the 3rd or 4th Floor, and I think we switched either from C to B or B to C. I don't really remember the letters anymore.
We made our way down the hallway on the 3rd or 4th Floor, both units, and by then I think there was a chief with us, and as I recall, he had an 11 on his helmet, so I presume since then it was not the division, so I presume it was chief from the 11th Battalion, and so we pretty much then traveled up as a unit, 4 Engine, Engine 28, and this chief.
There was also -- I remember a fireman or two from Ladder 8, and about the 10th Floor or so, the chief made a decision to -- the new stairway we were in had a lot of people coming down, and the chief made a decision that we were going to pause and get these people to another stairway and direct them to another stairway to try to vacate that stairway as best we could for us to go up and use it as an attack stairway.
So I would guess we were something like on the 10th Floor or something. So we probably spent a couple of minutes directing civilians to another stairway. They were all very cooperative, and there was no panic to speak of, and I remember reassuring of the civilians saying, "You're all right now. Just continue now. You are safe now."
I asked people occasionally has anybody been coming from a fire, you know, a floor where they have seen fire or smoke, just trying to determine how far up we had to go. So I had the impression we were heading for Floor No. 60, but it actually would have been higher.
So the firemen were getting pretty tired by then, and they wanted to take little breaks every few floors, so our progress was pretty slow. We weren't aware of any -- of the other plane. We heard rumors that another plane was on route, and one of the guys, Lieu, "Did you hear that? There's another plane on route, another one."
So we kind of knew somehow that a plane had hit. We knew it was a terrorist attack. Just -- I don't know -- accumulated knowledge along the way, I guess, from civilians talking or a little handy-talkie chatter, but by then, I presume, it was already 9:30 or something.
Q:
You never heard the second plane?
A:
We never heard the second plane.
Q:
Just to verify, you were in the first tower that was struck, which was in the north tower?
A:
Yes.
Q:
And you had --
A:
World Trade Center No. 1.
Q:
And you had --
A:
So I would say within -- we were probably in there like at probably 9:04, 9:05 or something like that, so I would say just as we were in the stairway heading up, the other plane probably hit the other tower. I would say -- but we weren't aware of that. We had very poor handy-talkie communications. We didn't hear much of anything. There must have been Maydays galore out in the street. We didn't hear any of them. I didn't. The chief didn't apparently either.
I remember it took a long time. A couple of the firemen were having a tough time keep going. We stayed as a unit, all of us still, all -- both companies, the chief, and by the time -- I remember we got -- had to go in to Floor No. 28. I said, "Come on, guys, we are at 28. Come on, next stop is 28th Floor." So that's accurate in my mind.
After that, I think we made another push after that, but that is not as accurate in my mind, that I'd say we were in the 30th or 31st, 32nd Floor, or something like that, and a few of the guys were lying wiped out on the floor, you know, taking a break with their masks off and lying in the hallway when there was a very loud roaring sound and a very loud explosion, and the -- it felt like there was an explosion above us, and I had a momentary concern that our building was collapsing.
Looking up, guys were diving into the stairway, and then it was like -- everybody was very scared by then. I'm talking the firemen, and then we were very worried about what was going on. We didn't know, but apparently that was the other building falling. I think we were that far along.
So we regrouped in the stairway for a couple of minutes, and I told the guys, "All right, hang on. Let's see what's going on." I still wanted to go up and fight the fire. The chief was very good. He said, "All right, everybody calm down."
A couple of firemen said, "Did you feel that rush of air?" and things like that, and how it was going on. It really felt like our building was coming down, and then the chief, who was out of sight for a few minutes, then came running up the stairs, and that's my impression, and he was saying -- "All right--" everybody was very adamant and loud, and he said, "Everybody, we are -- all Fire Department personnel are out of the building. We are getting out. Leave all your equipment," he was yelling, "Leave your equipment, and just get up and go, go, go," like that.
So I presume that he got the word that the other building had fallen.
Q:
What floor were you guys on?
A:
I would say 30th or 31st, something like that.
Q:
That's when the chief --
A:
That's when we were notified. I think this was the 11th Battalion. I think his body was recovered yesterday.
Q:
Oh, boy.
A:
But I'm not sure, because I thought that the 11th battalion also was with Ladder 6 when they were -- so I'm not clear on all this.
So we made -- we started to make our way back down, and there were no civilians to speak of in our stairway. There were a couple of stragglers being helped by somebody or other. We did tell them keep going down, and there were -- we might have seen a couple of firemen, but everybody was in the process. Everybody was heading down. Nobody was heading up any more, and it was pretty clear that we were getting out.
Q:
Did you have an idea what time you guys started to descend down?
A:
I would say it was like one minute after the first building collapsed, the first collapse of the other building.
Q:
So five after ten then?
A:
Right. It took us a long time to get up there.
Q:
There were firefighters above you?
A:
Not that I know of, no. I mean, we didn't see anybody going up ahead of us. We just saw civilians coming down, and by the time we were heading down, there were really no civilians anymore, and we had a clear track to the -- and to the lobby.
When we got to the lobby, there was total devastation then. When we went in, it was blasted apart, and there was broken glass everywhere. All the windows were out, but when we got down, just my impression was that it was like being outside. You know, you weren't even in the building anymore. It was devastation, but we were in the northwest corner of the building, so we were diagonally separated a hundred percent from the first collapsed building. We were on the opposite corner -- we were the most sheltered part.
We got to the lobby, and we saw things. We saw an arrest being made of some Arab-looking type guy. I think he had a blue uniform type World Trade Center type maintenance type person. It was my impression. It didn't seem important to me. It seemed like he was being arrested by a Port Authority type policeman. That's my impression. I remember them putting cuffs on him, and I remember one of the firemen saying, "Look, they're arresting the guy," and I said, "Never mind that. Never mind that."
You know, it was not our concern. There was chaos in the lobby. It was random people running around. There was no structure. There were no crowds. There was no -- no operation of any kind going on, nothing. There was no evacuation. It was just people running around, a few Port Authority police, and I think Engine 4 made it down.
I was talking to guys this morning. You know, we were with them. I remember on one or two floors above, Joe Farrelly, the captain, saying, "Oh, Brian, how you doing? I thought you were behind me," you know, but I ended up ahead of him the last flight. We were checking floors intermittently on the way down occasionally, make sure there were no firemen and stuff. We were trying to do a dignified retreat.
We didn't really realize the extent of what was ahead or what had already happened, and we got to the -- then we got to the lobby.
I have no more recollection of Engine 4. We gathered Engine 28, me and the four firefighters. We gathered by the edge of the lobby, the northwest corner of the lobby by the broken glass, and I made a move towards going out, and then I was worried that we were going to be hit by bodies or falling debris, and then I said-- "I don't know, you know, what --" this is the truth, this is what happened actually in that moment. I said, "I don't know. Maybe we should stay here for -- maybe we are safer here at the edge of the lobby." And one of the senior guys said, "Let's get the F out of here." So we said, "Okay, let's go, let's -- Ready, here we go. Let's head for our overpass."
So we just ran as a unit to the overpass again, and we took a look up, and it was like one -- it was like, holy shit. It was like -- because it was like -- I guess the building was kind of -- I don't remember specifically, but I remember it was, like, we got to get out of here. So I think that the building was really kind of starting to melt. We were -- like, the meltdown was beginning. The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire anymore up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.
I said to the guys -- I said, "We are in the collapse zone." I mean, that sounds like a joke, but I said, "We got to -- we can't stay here." So we started running up West Street, and I'd say within 50 yards or so the building was collapsing behind us, and then it was like everybody was, like, oh shit, you know. This is it. Every man for himself, running up West Street.
Q:
So what members of the Company 28 were with you that day? Do you recall?
A:
With me?
Q:
Yes.
A:
Chelsen, Ippolito, Campagna -- he's an eight-week guy -- and Kehoe. He's the famous photographed firefighter of Engine 28 on the steps.
Q:
Did you happen to remove any injuries or civilians or any of your own members following any collapse?
A:
After the -- after the collapse, we were about 50 to a hundred yards north of the pedestrian walkway, and the collapse was occurring, and the firemen were all ahead of me, but my four firemen were ahead of me running up West Street, and then the black cloud just came roaring at us, and then we got separated for an hour or so, and I made -- I was torn between -- after like, you know, five or ten minutes, I guess, if I kept trying to get it together. Everybody -- you know, it was chaos. You know, it was pure chaos, and after maybe ten minutes or so, trying to figure out what had happened, and where we were, and letting the dust settle a little so we could see where we were, I kind of figured my four guys were safe.
I thought my chauffeur was dead for sure, because he was parked somewhere near the building. I made a little effort to -- I headed back. I figured I have to head back and try to see about my chauffeur, and I started back on my own, but we were confronted, like, with a huge pile of burning building, and the -- not even getting near the overpass where we were, and there were other buildings burning, like towering right to the side, and I was by myself, and I just talked to myself, Well, geez, I just almost got killed, and I'm not going to tempt fate any more. Didn't seem like there was anywhere to go.
We were kind of blocked. All the rubble was on West Street, so we would have had to go all the way around by the river to get around to the other side, so --
Q:
Just going back to the handy-talkies, the communication.
A:
Right.
Q:
While operating prior to the first collapse, and following the first collapse, were there any communications?
A:
We didn't hear anything. I didn't hear anything.
Q:
Also during the second collapse --
A:
After the second collapse, it was pure pandemonium on the handy-talkies.
Q:
Is there a certain channel that you guys operate on?
A:
We stayed on the primary technical Channel 1. We never switched.
Q:
You never switched.
Just going back, given the current status of any member missing or deceased member, did you see them or did you --
A:
No, I never saw a firefighter die. I never saw -- turns out our chauffeur made it. He was pulled into a building. He had experienced both collapses on the street, and he had been somehow pulled in on the second one that would have destroyed our apparatus totally. He was pulled into a building by a policeman or something into a federal building or something.
MR. MURAD:
George, any questions?
BY MR. CUNDARI:
Q:
What did you hear when the building starting collapsing the second time? Did you feel -- just started coming down? You didn't hear anything, feel anything?
A:
We felt -- our whole building that we were in, when World Trade Center 2 collapsed, that was the first one to collapse. We were in World Trade Center 1. It was a tremendous explosion and tremendous shaking of our building. We thought it was our building maybe collapsed, there was a collapse above us occurring.
It was tremendous shaking and like everybody dove into this stairwell and waited for, I guess, 20, 30 seconds until it settled, and that was our experience of the other building collapsing.
MR. MURAD:
Lieutenant Becker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to do this interview with you. The time now is 1220 hours, and I'd like to state this concludes the interview. Thank you very much.
File No. 9110020: FIREFIGHTER KEVIN MURRAY
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Elizabeth F. Santamaria
K. Murray
MR. MURAD/CUNDARI:
Today is October 9, 2001. The time is 1240 hours and my name is Murray Murad/George Cundari of the New York City Fire Department. I am conducting an interview with --
A:
Firefighter, Third Grade, Kevin Murray, assigned to Ladder 18 that day of the Fire Department of the City of New York.
Q:
I am currently at Ladder 11 and Engine 28 regarding the events on September 11, 2001. Firefighter Murray, do you want to give your account of the tragic day?
A:
Okay. I'll start from the beginning. I came to Ladder 11. I was -- I knew I was being detailed to 18 Truck and I thought I was riding for somebody on 11 Truck when the first plane hit. The second alarm was given, 28 Engine was turned out and I had somebody relieve me on 11 Truck so I could get over to 18 Truck in case they went on the box. I got over to 18 Truck. I was assigned by Lieutenant Borega, I was assigned the can and shortly after that the fifth alarm was given for the first tower and we went to -- 18 Truck was assigned. That's just about the same time that the second plane had hit, because we still saw kind of the explosion when we got onto the FDR, because they're pretty close.
On the FDR, there is a lot of traffic on the FDR and we saw -- I don't know which tower it was, but I think it was Tower 2, what looked like a hole where the fire was. That looked like a plane had gone through it.
Q:
So that would probably be the south tower?
A:
Probably the south tower, right, because we were coming from the FDR. So the south tower is closer. So probably the south tower. We saw -- I couldn't believe what I was looking at. We got under the bridge that goes from the FDR into West Street and there was -- it was unbelievable. There was jumpers everywhere, there was bodies everywhere, pieces of plane everywhere. It didn't seem like a lot of firemen everywhere. There was rigs parked in a couple of different areas, but you didn't see a lot of firemen, at all.
Q:
Would you happen to know basically or to the best of your knowledge, where you saw those rigs?
A:
There was a couple of rigs parked in front of the north tower and a couple of rigs parked -- there was a bridge that comes across where Liberty Street is and there was a van fire right next to that. I remember seeing that when I came in. And I saw a couple of rigs parked on Liberty Street. Where we parked, our rig was on -- we parked our rig under the bridge, the pedestrian bridge of -- that comes from 1 World Trade across the street to the Financial Center, the pedestrian bridge. That's where we parked our rig under.
Q:
Were you able to identify any of the other apparatus or units that were there?
A:
That were there?
Q:
If you recall.
A:
The rigs that we saw?
Q:
Right.
A:
No. Not to my knowledge. There was a company that was pulled in right next to us. I'm not sure what that company was.
Q:
Okay.
A:
Now we're all just looking up. The first thing the Lieutenant said is "We're staying together on this." I said, "Lieu, I'm grabbing a search rope." I grabbed a search rope, we all grabbed an extra cylinder and we started heading across under the bridge towards the first tower, Tower 1, the north tower. So we had walked alongside of 6 World Trade. We're parked under here. 18 Truck was parked on this side of the street, right there. We walked under the bridge and then pretty much walked into 1 World Trade right on this corner. Tower 1, that's how I went into the building (indicating). There was a bunch of glass broken and we didn't go in through a doorway. There was all glass broken, there was glass everywhere and there was bodies everywhere. Everywhere that you looked there was a body or mush, you know. We got into -- the command center was somewhere in here or there was a bunch of chiefs somewhere in here (indicating).
When we got there, there was a lot of people not knowing what to do. Van Essen was there. Van Essen came over to 18 Truck.
Q:
This is the north tower; correct?
A:
North tower. Van Essen came over to the 18 Truck as soon as we got into the building or shortly thereafter and said, "Forget about the fire. Just get the people out." That's what they actually told us and these people -- we're waiting to get a sign basically.
So we stood over here on the northernmost wall, the exposure 4 wall -- the exposure 2 wall and waited to get a sign. 21 Engine was doing the same thing, standing there with us and we were waiting to get a sign. I actually helped Father Judge into the building, because he went under one of those -- where the glass was, they had these metal bars going across and he had to bend over and walk under it. So I helped him into the building and then they said, we're going to be sent to the third floor and above. To start working our way up to start doing the search.
Now my father works in the building and I'm looking for a directory to see where he worked and we went to -- the first floor we went to was the third floor and all these people were coming down in the rear of the tower back here. They have these escalators that were shut off and all these people were coming down.
The elevators looked like they were on fire in the lobby. There wasn't smoke coming out of them, but it looked like they all bubbled up and everything and there was a fire in there. Basically we took the B stairwell, which is in between the elevators. I'm sorry. We forced an elevator door first and we got a lady out of an elevator. The elevator in the B stair, next to the B stairwell, closest to the B stairwell. We helped a lady out of there and we started walking up to the third floor.
That third floor was clear. There was no damage, nothing. We got up to the fifth floor and there was severe damage. The ceilings had come down, the some walls had caved in. Major sprinkler damage, because there wasn't just a sprinkler. It was just like 2 and a half inch hose hitting you in the face when you were walking up there. So we were walking. We figured this is a good place to start looking for people and we were in some sort of -- we didn't see a company name or anything. Like we were in some sort of corporate area with cubicles or anything. It was almost like we were in like a locker room or something. We had made our way to like where the janitors worked or something. We had checked all the locker rooms and everything else. We were forcing some doors. We were there for a while.
Then we went to the sixth floor and did the same thing. Same sort of damage up there. When we were on the sixth floor, it was the sixth floor or the fifth floor, we were helping the people get down the B stairwell. And what I found out later to be was the first tower had collapsed.
Q:
The south tower?
A:
The south tower had collapsed. Now, it shook us and knocked a couple of guys down. Everybody ran to the stairwell. All the lights went off, all the shit came up the stairwell. It was filled with dust. There was a report that a third plane had hit the building and then we got another report that the 65 floor in the north tower had collapsed. That's what the rumbling was. We had no idea that the south tower had gone.
So at that point we --
Q:
Did you get a report from the radio? Any communications? How was the communications at that point?
A:
Communications were all over the place. I had the can so I didn't have a radio, but I was with the irons man and I kinds of heard a lot, but a lot of people were trying to talk at the same time. It was just static, a lot. What you did hear was -- what I did hear at one point, which I thought was Ladder 11, but it wound up being Battalion 11, because I was listening for them, was on the 30th floor. But it wasn't Ladder 11. It was Battalion 11.
We basically did an evacuation at that point and we started trying to get the people to keep going down the stairs, to calm down. What happened was that we didn't see it, but a portion of the lobby had gotten knocked out when that tower came down, so we couldn't evacuate people down that stairwell anymore. So we started funneling everybody that was on the stairwell through the 5th floor, across the 5th floor through the locker room, to another stairwell. I think it's the C stairwell. I'm not sure. And we started sending people down that.
Eventually someone -- and we were basically set up on a relay where it would be a couple of us every 15, 20 feet with flashlights showing people where to walk and we sent the people down that stairwell. Whatever was blocking the B stairwell must have got freed up, because then we were able to -- we were able to start sending them back down that stairwell. Because people, it was taking forever to get these people through the 5th floor.
Q:
And were all you guys still together at the same time or were you separated?
A:
We were spread out on the 5th floor, but we were all together. We were all there.
Q:
Okay were you also on channel 1?
A:
Yes. We were always on channel 1.
Q:
At any time did they advise you to switch to another channel?
A:
I heard something about somebody being in a different tower or something, switch to channel 3. But I didn't have a radio, so I didn't really think about that.
Q:
When you were in the second collapse, of the north tower, do you recall the individuals or the companies that were with you?
A:
28 Engine was with us when we left the building. They weren't with us on the floor when we came down. After that, after we got everybody out, it was all firemen in the stairwells, in the B stairwell and I saw a guy from 16 Engine that I knew on the stairwell. We kind of waved to each other. I saw a guy from 15 Engine in the stairwell.
Q:
Do you recall any of their names by chance?
A:
Yes. Jimmy Hynes from 15 Engine, I saw him in the stairwell. He's okay. Pete Fallucca from 16 Engine, I saw him. He's okay. And this is all in the stairwell coming down. We went down to the lobby. Because once the firemen were all evacuating, we decided to evacuate with them. We went down to the lobby, this is the first time I got to see the lobby. We were missing Charlie Maloney from 18 Truck. We didn't know where he was. I think he was the irons with me that day. Because he had gone down to the front of the stairwell to guide civilians out the stairwell. When we got to the lobby and saw so the lobby was devastated, we thought maybe he got killed in that. But he wound up being okay later on.
What happened was we got down to the lobby and a guy from Rescue 1, I don't know his name, came over to 18 Truck and said, "You gotta help us if you got any steam left." He was all bloodied up. He goes, "My company is trapped upstairs and we got more companies trapped upstairs." He goes, "If you got anything left, come with me."
We run up the stairs. We started going back up. Now all these firemen are evacuating the building, we start going back up the B stairwell. We made it to the 5th floor and then there was a report of major gas, a gas leak on the 5th floor. So now I'm heading back up the stairs to the 20 something floor and there was some sort of gas leak on the 5th floor. I smelled it, but I couldn't tell if it was a gas leak or anything, but you definitely smelled something that wasn't there when we were doing the evacuation.
Q:
Was there any conversation when you guys were going back up and there were firefighters descending down? Was there any conversation between the two groups?
A:
More so through Lieutenants, but, you know, just basically. "Be safe." No one said anything about the tower having gone down. I don't think a lot of people knew that it had gone down. We didn't know.
So when we got up to the 5th floor and we smelled that gas and we saw these guys evacuating, we said, "We better get out of here." So we started heading down again. The guy from Rescue kept going up. He didn't stay with us. I don't know his name. A short, stocky guy.
Q:
Was the stairwell lit?
A:
We removed an injured civilian at the beginning and a couple of hundred civilians through. You know, getting them through that stairwell. But other than that, we didn't carry anybody out. The civilians were kind of -- once the collapse happened, they were shot. But they weren't panicking, running or anything like that. They were kind of staying calm.
Q:
Given the current known status of the missing, the injured, deceased members, who did you see and where did you see them and what were they doing at the time? Was there any verbal interaction? Like I asked before when you guys were up and down the staircase. Did you last see someone?
A:
When we came down to the lobby, we saw 28 Engine. We also saw 4 Engine. 4 Engine was in the lobby with us. There was another company that was back -- I don't know what company it was. It was back by the escalators, walking towards the front of the lobby. I think it was an Engine Company. I'm not sure.
We had a guy from 28 Engine, Roy Chelsen, had said, We saw all these jumpers coming down, a lot of glass was coming down, said we should run. Lieutenant Becker and Roy, who is a senior man said, "Let's run." They ran out Tower 1, alongside World Trade 6 and we had said -- 18 Truck conferred too and said, "We should go too." But the thing we were scared about was that the jumpers were coming down and all the glass was coming down. There was a lot more jumpers coming down at that time. And there was a guy under the bridge screaming, "Come on. Come on. Come on." You know. We ran. A couple of jumpers just missed me and the roof man.
We got under the bridge and we stopped, because my hook got caught in Harry's suspenders and his radio. It took me forever to get my hook out of his thing. We thought we were safe at that point. We saw a guy, I think big Port Authority Police or somebody had a guy locked up in handcuffs right in front of us and there was a guy, a rig right there.
Q:
You can use the diagram to show us.
A:
There was a rig right here. Actually, even closer. It was right as soon you got onto the street. There was a rig and a couple of guys sitting on the back of the rig.
K. Murray
Q:
At West and Vesey?
A:
Yeah. Right in front of World Trade, right under the bridge. And they were all messed up. You know, like exhausted and they were sitting there. We walked -- now we're walking. This guy, they were locking up this guy a little bit from Vesey, right here. A little bit south of Vesey Street on west. We started walking when the second tower --
Q:
They are describing it as the north tower.
A:
The north tower came down.
Q:
Where did you exit out of?
A:
The same place --
Q:
The same way you went in? Okay. You went north on West Street?
A:
We went north on West Street. We decided not to go to our rig, because we saw a lot of people up here, so we started going towards them. When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino -- you know, dominoeing up and then come down. We were right in front of 6, so we started running and how are you going to outrun the World Trade Center? So we threw our tools and I dove under a rig. The chauffeur Hughey from 18 Truck dove with me. The rest of 18 Truck dove under something else. Not the same rig as us, and then it came down. I don't even think we made it to Vesey Street. We might have been right on the corner of Vesey Street.
Q:
And were the guys from 18 safe and accounted for?
A:
Well, not at that point, but eventually through the day we found Charlie Maloney who we thought was killed in the lobby. He had made it out himself across to the Financial Center, across the street, and the roof man, Ralph from 18 Truck had gotten hurt and he was found at 7 Engine and 1 Truck later on. About seven hours later.
Q:
Anything else you want to add?
A:
No.
MR. MURAD/CUNDARI:
Okay. So basically this concludes our interview. I would like to thank you, Firefighter Kevin Murray, for this interview which you just gave us. The time now is 1300 hours and at this time I would like to conclude this interview. Thank you very much.
File No. 9110021: FIREFIGHTER MATTHEW LONG
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Elizabeth F. Santamaria
M . Long
MR. MURAD:
The date is October 9, 2001. The time is 1425 hours and this is Murray Murad and --
MR. CUNDARI:
George Cundari.
MR. MURAD:
Of the Fire Department of the City of New York. I am conducting an interview with the following firefighter:
A:
Matthew Long. Firefighter first rank, Ladder 43.
MR. MURAD:
Of the Fire Department of the City of New York. We are currently at Ladder 43 and this is regarding the tragic events on September 11, 2001.
BY MR. MURAD:
Q:
If you would please give your accounts of that day, on that tragic day what happened at the World Trade Center regarding your ladder company and personally yourself.
A:
Okay. We were at a box. That's when the second plane hit and then we took in the Trade Center incident. We came in on West Street and to the best of my knowledge I could see both towers on fire, a lot of smoke. I witnessed people jumping as we were driving down the West Street highway.
M. Long
Q:
If you could draw on the diagram of where your resting place was.
A:
I believe we stopped somewhere on Murray Street, almost two blocks from the 6 World Trade and another block from the first tower. At that moment we got off the rig, we got all our equipment together and I started walking towards the command post. We took a minute. Our lieutenant, Glenn Rohan, took a minute, stopped us all and basically gave us a little pep talk. We didn't know what we were getting into here. It was obviously some kind of an attack and that we should conserve energy, get rid of some tools and stay together most of all.
So we started back down West Street towards the Trade Center and I would say we got to between Barclay and Vesey when the first tower came down and it was chaos. It was crazy.
Q:
Were all you guys from the truck together at the time that collapse came?
A:
We were all together at the time with one extra roof man.
Q:
That was the south tower that you're talking about?
A:
I believe, yes. I believe it was the first tower. I believe when we were coming down the West Side Highway the both towers were still standing and burning and there was no chaos going on at that point.
So we retreated a little bit I guess, right to about Barclay and we ducked in, possibly, I don't remember, but we possibly ducked in 125 Barclay. We ducked in like an entranceway and just lay on the floor while most of the stuff was blowing by us. And when it seemed to have -- when the cloud of gray and black crap and things going by just seemed to slow down, we tied off a rope and started walking in to go back towards where everything used to be.
Q:
You came down West Street from there?
A:
Yes. We came down this way, like that (indicating).
Q:
Just circle this here and identify this as 125 Barclay. That's where you waited until the debris and everything cleared?
A:
Yes.
Q:
Was there any communications by radio or was there still command post communications post --
A:
At this point it was just -- there was just people running past us and so much chaos. We masked up and we started walking in with a rope. We had a search rope on and at that point I didn't know where we were headed.
Q:
Were any other firefighters running your way or did you intercept anybody?
A:
There were some cops running our way. There were -- there could have been firemen running, but there were fire trucks everywhere and when we got in further, there was just fire, a lot of rigs on fire.
Q:
Were you able to identify the rigs that were on fire, by any chance?
A:
No, I didn't recall which rigs were there at that point. But at that point we stretched in. We started climbing over the rubble and the boss said --
Q:
What boss was that?
A:
Lieutenant Rohan, Glenn Rohan, 43. He was just telling us to get -- he took three guys and said, "Grab a line off that rig and start putting out some of these car fires and rig fires." As he tried to look to see if there was still a command post. So that's what we did. So he split us up into two teams. And that's what we did probably for a while and I don't even remember the second tower coming down. We just kept working and climbing over stuff. I don't remember it coming down. I don't know if it came my direction or it went in the other direction, because it was just black. It had to be -- visibility was horrible for at least 45, 50, 60 minutes. I don't remember the time at that point.
So that's what we kept doing. We kept stretching hose lines. There was a ladder to -- there was a portable ladder up on 6 World Trade, so we were in this area right here just climbing over all sorts of debris. It was crush -- I think Rescue 1 was right about here.
Q:
You are identifying the West Side Highway, right off Vesey; right?
A:
It was near Vesey. It was inside of -- it was between 6 and 1 and that's where the foot bridge I believe is.
Q:
So that's the pedestrian bridge?
A:
That's the pedestrian bridge. So it was right in front of 6.
Q:
Okay. So that was Rescue 1.
A:
Rescue 1 was right around here. I remember that. And this was down. So this is where we operated from the most, for the first hour, right here. Vesey and West Street. There were rigs everywhere. Rigs were all over here, they were burning. Between Barclay and Vesey there had to be a dozen rigs burning.
Q:
At any point did you remove any civilians or a member of the service following any of the collapses? If so, were there any injuries or did you see any firefighters that were injured?
A:
No. I didn't encounter any injured firefighters. I didn't leave anyone alone. If I saw them alone, I checked to make sure they were all right. If they weren't, I was looking for their company or looking for their boss.
Q:
Were people still running towards you or running away at that point?
A:
No. At this point now when we were putting out fires everyone was, you know, was pretty much just scrambling for hose line and doing stuff like that. Then, like I said, the boss went up a ladder that was to the scaffold of 6 World Trade here, where the U.S. Customs building is. He yelled down he needed two Stokes, because they had a down firefighter up here.
So we went and grabbed two baskets, tied them up and they carried him up the land. At that point is when they were looking for 6 Truck. 6 Truck and 39 Engine, they were saying were missing over the radios?
Q:
I don't remember.
A:
6 Truck and 39 were together and they were trapped and they were calling for help on the radio. That's the last radio transmission I heard on channel 1. My boss and Jerry Suden and Todd Frederickson, two firefighters, and Johnny Colon, he was the chauffeur that day. The four of them went through this building and into the rubble of the both towers.
Q:
The both towers were down at that point?
A:
Yes. Both towers were definitely down at that point. So they went in there and that's the last I heard from them. They switched to channel 5. I didn't hear it given over the radio, for the 43 truck to switch to 5, so I operated with Frank Macchia. He was the second roof man and we teamed up in 6 World Trade with the 40th battalion. And we searched this building top to bottom. That's the 6 World Trade, U.S. Customs building.
Q:
Right.
A:
So we searched that building top to bottom and just constantly getting dead ends.
Q:
At what point do you think you guys hooked up all together as a company? Was that at any point or not at all?
A:
I didn't hook back up with the rest of my company until 5:00 or 6:00 o'clock at night. So I operated alone a lot.
Q:
Okay. Anything to add?
A:
The 7 came down at 4:30, I believe?
Q:
Yeah, around that time.
A:
Okay. Then I'm wrong. If 7 came down between 4:30 and 5:00, I hooked up with my company. Frank Macchia and I went under this foot bridge and started climbing on top of the rubble. At that point there was like a chain gang of guys and we were trying to get one of the Chiefs that was trapped, they were trying to get closer to him.
Q:
Let's highlight that area.
A:
Okay. We came under the foot bridge this way and we probably would be on top or in this little courtyard between 1 and 2.
M. Long
Q:
Okay. And this is where --
A:
1 and 2 here. And there was a rubble here. There was like a big 40, 50-foot drop you had to walk down and then back up and we had a little bit of a chain gang trying to pass stuff out and they were supposedly in communication with one Chief and I was probably midway up with Frank Macchia and my boss and Jerry and whoever else was up on top of that rubble. So I waited there and that's when we finally got reunited. And at that point they were worried that 7 was coming down so they were calling for everyone to back out.
So I waited for -- we waited for the boss, Lieutenant Rohan, in the middle of the rubble and we all walked out together back to the West Side Highway and crossed the highway and pretty much hung out by the marina when 7 came down.
Q:
Where were you during the first collapse?
A:
Walking down West Street. We were walking to the command center.
Q:
And then you heard the second collapse, you said; right?
A:
I don't remember the second collapse at all. I guess it was just stuff going through my head and whatever else. I'm almost 100% positive -- actually I had a camera on the rig when we were driving on the West Side Highway, I took pictures, but they didn't come out and I can remember both towers burning and we could see people jumping. From then on our minds were just like you didn't know what was going on. Unimaginable.
Q:
A lot of talk on the radios or --
A:
A tremendous amount of talk on the radios.
Q:
Were you able to understand?
A:
I mean there was a lot of people yelling. "We're trapped here." "We need tools here." "We need tools here." And nothing was getting answered because rigs were -- there were rig fires and police vehicle fires. They said the ESU units were on fire and they had explosives and weapons. So that was the concern. The amount of stuff that was flying in the air. It wasn't even like smoke. It was like dust or whatever it was. It was just lingering and it stayed there for such a long time. Which led me to believe that the second building collapsed and, you know, they just kept it going.
I mean that's my story pretty much. I mean it was a long time. I was by myself a long time.
Q:
You didn't try to call them for a while because there was other stuff on the radio and I was all right.
Q:
You had nobody with you?
A:
I was with one other firefighter, Frank Macchia. The two of us worked.
Q:
You were together the whole time?
A:
We stayed together after we left the 48th battalion. We worked in that building for a while and the building was totally evacuated. We didn't see anybody and there was some pockets of fire, you know, big holes in it, but we were -- we eventually left him to try to reunite ourselves with our guys.
Q:
And you finally found them over where?
A:
We found them through this foot bridge, probably right in this area here of the rubble, the center of the rubble. We went through the foot bridge and came up and there were some I beams and there was a big wall. You kind of climbed down a bit and then came back up, and that is where our boss was operating up there, on top of that where they said they possibly had communications with a chief that was trapped. I'm assuming he was one that they left there. Because they were just adamant about 7 coming down immediately. I think we probably got out of that rubble and 18 minutes later is when 7 came down. So I watched -- we watched. There was a command station right here on Vesey. We were here with a whole group of guys. We watched 7 come down and then we went through, I guess this is the morgue now, Merrill Lynch, we went through that building there and there was an atrium we came through to go back on the other side and try to get back into help.
Q:
So you came from North End Street then?
A:
Yes. We came right through. This is the marina. We went right through -- there is an atrium here and we came through here and there was another command post on this side and we were trying to get back into see what they were doing. Lieutenant Nigro from 58 Engine was missing and apparently they knew where he was. We were trying to help out there, but by then it was -- by darkness we were all just spent. We were just hanging out.
MR. MURAD:
Firefighter Matthew Long, I would like to thank you for sitting down with us for this interview. The time now is 1440 hours and this concludes this portion of the interview.
File No. 9110022: FIRST GRADE FIREFIGHTER GERARD SUDEN
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
Interview Date: October 9, 2001
Transcribed by: Elisabeth F. Nason
G. SUDEN
Page 397
TO BE CONTINUED
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That is somewhat remarkable; to consider it can all be stored in a single blog post.
Do you know how much space it occupies on chain?
Yup, it's amazing. I have only posted 250 pages of the 7,500 pages right now so the size is not that big. Note that Hive posts blocks of 65 KB every 3 seconds, so I have to publish only a few dozen pages at a time. So far I have posted 46,000 words. Will finish the rest in time.
The PDF is 52 MB, so the final post will be roughly that much.
Here is an earlier post I made with over 110,000 words! https://peakd.com/hive-128780/@mes/messcience-3-overview-of-biology