RE: The Inverse Square Law of Light
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No legit flat earther believes that we are on some sort of disc floating in a space void/vacuum, or able to fall off an edge. That's "Flat Earth Society" bs.
It is not "pointless" to try and prove the actual variables in an equation. "Thousands of scientists", even those whom are "Peer Reviewed" can be wrong. Without a way to measure the distance with a laser, radio signal, etc, then all you have is a theory.
So if you really want to engage in this conversation, I implore you to give me one single proof of the distance, using the Scientific Method.
If you live in Australia and I live in Argentina, can you point a laser or shoot a radio signal at me and tell me the size and distance from you of the ball that I am holding up?
Without knowing what you believe or your qualifications for proof this is a pointless discussion. You can look up scientific papers on such matters, but may not understand them. I'm not an expert on these topics, but I trust others to be. If you lack trust then life gets difficult.
You cannot measure everything with a laser, especially as they only go in straight lines, not around spheres.
If not a laser or radio signal, then how? You gave me 2 links above and neither one of them tells us how they measured the distance from the earth to the sun. You need at least 2 values to complete the equation. Point A to B would be 1 value. You don't have to be an "expert" in a white lab coat to figure that out. Without proof, or a way to even measure it for ourselves, all you have is a theory.
It is not "pointless" to question everything.
It depends on your motives. Don't you think others would have questioned this over the last few thousand years? I don't know the full details, but I did experiments at school to measure electromagnetic forces, gravity and the speed of light. There will be loads of other articles and videos with more details on solar geometry. Google will provide.
People do not just take these things on trust. The scientific method you dismiss is about reproducing results. If anyone could disprove a major theory it would be big news. Gravity is a really robust one and is used every day by all sorts of people.
In recent decades we have sent probes out around the solar system and some go relatively close to the Sun. Maybe you don't believe in those, but many thousands of people would need to be in on the conspiracy.
Scepticism is good, but you have to decide what counts as evidence. Opinions do not.
Anyway you can live your whole life treating the Earth as flat unless you are doing actual science and engineering that would be affected. Why stress out about it? Most people don't care.
My "motives" are the truth. The scientfic method that you dismiss is how we reach the truth, we prove it and we know.
Belief is the enemy of knowing.
You believe they sent probes (little spaceships that flew 93 million miles away and sent us radio signals back from there). Again, you have no proof of that, you just trust it and believe it.
Actual science requires testable, observable, measurable and repeatable facts, not just belief.
Without knowing, all you can do is believe. That's not good enough for me.
I'm not dismissing the scientific method at all. Some proofs are complex and you or I may need deep study to understand them, but others spend their lives on them. Are you dismissing their work?
We had a flat-earther at Hivefest and also a CERN physicist. Which of those do you think could best argue their case? Just because something is beyond your comprehension does not make it impossible.
Find an astronomer who will explain things better than I can. There are Q&A sites for that. Maybe ask Elon Musk about his rocket company.
I cannot prove all these things for myself, but I trust that scientists have been held to account. If someone has a different model then they need to open it to scrutiny.
You are completely dismissing the scientific method. Your unwavering belief in their expertise (so called) and star trek probes is what has you convinced that the white lab coat people are not wrong, and not pandering to their higher authority.
Who is their higher authority? If you ever attended a University, you should know. Want funding? Get your work with their variable values signed off on. That's how easy it is. Want us to license you or give you a fancy Certificate? Regurgitate what our books say. Easy.
Once you start doing actual research and using values in the equation that are facts, then you can reach the truth and know the laws of nature.
Belief is the enemy of knowing. You must use the scientific method.
Peer review is the scientific method. My belief is based on centuries of science, not some YouTubers. If every scientist had to verify each theory for themselves they would never get anything done.
You dismiss people who spend their lives in science. There's not enough money in the world to buy their complicity. Most scientists are not rich.
I'm done with this until you come back with actual evidence. That can be a peer reviewed paper. YouTube is not acceptable.
No, Peer Review is the controllers of the curriculum determining if you have regurgitated their correct answers.
Your belief system is not based on provable facts. Detracting from the point is not proving to us how they measure such insane distances.
I want the provable facts. The scientific method. Can you prove every variable in the equation, or is one of the variables a belief in a pseudo-scientific theory..
Youtube cgi is not acceptable, you're right.
I do not want to join their cult, sorry. If proof cannot be demonstrated, then all you have is theory.
A shame, @steevc because although that I think you're technically correct, I believe you're doing a very troublesome job proving it.
The dark truth is that most people are in cults. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, or perhaps even communism, nazism, democracy, republicanism, or liberalism. Or science.
Of course it's not that the written method of science is a cult necessarily. It's that your MIND; your brain, CRAVES cults to join. Cults, groups, cliques, a people, a nation, a team, a tribe. Or an answer that puts to rest your fears, uncertainties, and doubts.
Thus you have allied yourself with at least the general direction of science, such that you would scoff at @kencode's potential belief that relates to a firmament or mythological existence, but although I will expect @kencode to find it very hard to actually PROVE a firmament exists and especially come up with ways to utilize it, or even land on the firmament, and mine it for resources, I'm finding it amusing how you are also failing to prove your point.
Do you actually understand what you believe?
I was very specific in how I presented my evidence, when detailing the size-distance ratio, and how 5 degrees of sky really does seem like a reasonable answer. My math has yielded an element of truth.
Of course the answer can't be presented in inches or millimeters, but 5 degrees of a sky arc is the answer, and that's just about how it looks whenever I see the full circle of the sun in real life.
But I'll anticipate circle vs sphere and answer that: How do we know it's a sphere? We'd watch as it rotates, or as we orbit around it. Just track the features, such as sunspots, and immediately we have a very clear way to know the shape of the sun, even if the size is unknown.
However, @kencode is right that we could use two lasers in different locations to measure the distance of the sun. What we would do is be exactly one or two kilometers away from each other, and simply shine the lasers at the sun and observe when they hit the same spot on the sun. Then we shine the same laser at each other, completing a full triangle. From there, we can begin to see how we would form an equation to solve the length of the sides of a triangle.
The more data we gather, such as the shape, the distance, the size, the trigonometry details, the composition, and how it works, such as elemental or chemical makeup, nuclear science, star fusion details, etc, the closer we can triangulate the true nature of our star.
But this is a real example that you can actually implement, and understand why it works. @Steevc, you need to have a little more respect for @kencode. Do you realize the sort of society we live in? It is NOT easy to trust people, especially mainstream things, such as politics, religion, culture, corporations, and science. There is no reason why "trust" should extend beyond my family, friends, and neighbors. These other people are strangers. The politicians, the CEOs, scientists, and all others with power or influence in society. They're strangers whom I have never met. There is no strong reason to trust either schools or Google or anyone else that I don't personally know.
And even if they intrude into my life, that still does not mean I would trust them. But I can at least utilize math and logic and natural facts that I myself can test, and do test.
Only lies and falsities come up with random fake answers or excuses, or explanations that completely fail to convince. Fake answers will be inconsistent, and not fit into anything else we know. For example, one reason why a firmament is illogical is because when we look at other planets in space, we are able to watch the moons of those planets orbit around those planets, and watch those planets orbit around the sun.
The intense 3D nature of orbits, including on the atomic and sub-atomic level, where we never deal with anything like firmaments, but instead, we always deal with spheres, or "droplets in zero-gravity" with other spheres orbiting them, drives away the idea of a firmament very effectively. Firmaments just aren't seen anywhere in real life, so I am not convinced that I will ever see a firmament. I've used telescopes before. I've seen the real details regarding stars and planets and even distant galaxies. A firmament is just not a realistic answer.
The closest thing to a flat firmament in space is our galaxy, which orbits in a very flattened shape, like a nicely fried egg. Is THAT the true meaning of firmament? Our galaxy? If that was the true ancient meaning of the word firmament, as if to imply that our galaxy is a unit that we can someday explore, although other galaxies are likely too far away, then that would be an answer that is both consistent and logical, and doesn't call into play supernatural entities, nor does it bring up concepts too technical or complex for us to explain and talk about together.
I prefer to keep things as simple as necessary, because if I ever find that I cannot explain something that I believe, I immediately darkly ponder just why it is that "truth" should be so hard to explain.
You make some assumptions about what I believe. What I see from the flat-earthers is a lack of trust in authorities, but they have to assume that millions of people who are doing science are lying whilst keeping the conspiracy silent. That's a big ask. Apparently some distrust NASA, but the science of astronomy goes back a long way and covers many cultures.
I did a certain level of science at school, so I know some principles even if I may not follow advanced topics. I do know that shining a laser at the Sun is pretty pointless as you would not be able to make it out against all the radiation pouring out. People were able to make accurate measurements long before lasers came along, but these may not be easy for an amateur to replicate. I also cannot look at some subatomic particles, but I did some observations of interactions at school such as Brownian motion and some types of radiation.
I'm not into religion or other supernatural things as those lack scientific validity. People can believe what they want as long as they do not force it on others.
If you don't trust people you never met then that limits what you can trust. Will you fly in a plane or accept medical treatment? Trust is vital for a working society, but has to be earned. Without science we would not be communicating now.
On balance I trust science more than random people on the internet. It has a better record of being right.
The issue here is that you are using the word "trust" in a way that it doesn't deserve, considering we're on a blockchain on the fringes of society, Tsk. Apparently everyone else in society can only use Twitter and Discord and Reddit, simply because those are what are mainstream and well accepted. Popular.
The keyword we need to bring up is "Trustless," in the sense of "code is law" or "math is law," or even the idea that the data, logic, and scientific method are trustless, because we do not necessarily need "peer review," as much as we need the external existence of reality.
So when you say you "trust science," I'm not really sure what your intentions are.
Obviously this entire conversation is taking place in the realm of someone who is so mistrustful of mainstream knowledge, that they question even Galileo, Copernicus, and other centuries old discoveries, to hearken back to the firmament model.
There is no place to be told that we should "trust science more than random people on the internet." In the context of this specific debate regarding the firmament, the issue is so fundamentally about the lack of trust people have in major institutions, that the only answer is the raw math, equations, and data itself.
In effect, random people on the internet are roughly as trustable as any random scientist, priest, politician, or even engineer or doctor. At least from the view of someone like @Kencode. Of course we are not here to be naive about how to function in society regarding the existence of technology and techniques, but in many ways, @Kencode's concern is very likely not necessarily a belief in the firmament, as if he absolutely knew all the facts about creationism and the firmament, but rather, the idea that modern science is so suspicious and untrustable, that all previous answers need to be reviewed again, including the firmament, creationism, and even non-big-bang theories that may lack any supernatural god element, but are still not what is currently accepted as science.
Trust has no place here and even mentioning it is a dark blight upon the topic of science. Having a better record of being right means nothing to me. Only the truth is true.
Faith, trust, and belief are blights blights blights, and even using that word in the context of a debate about the firmament is just not going to convince anyone. If you want to defeat @kencode, then you need to stop using the word trust, and stop asking him to trust people. That's not going to work. He views these institutions as liars, and until you can prove that at least some of what they say is true, why wouldn't he grow even more suspicious the more you tell him to have faith? You should just deliver him the data, the logic, and the usage of the scientific method, and importantly, do these experiments in real life, and get him to do them too. These are debates about the truth of reality, and unless you both go outside and embrace the light of the sun, all you will know is darkness.
I'm not out to 'defeat' @kencode. I am just putting out my views, but I don't know what level of proof he is looking for really. Measuring astronomical distances requires specialist equipment and knowledge.
I disagree with that. Trust is based on reputation which we can take from what we see them say/do and also from what others think of them. Mind you, I would say that a billion Christians can be wrong :) To become a respected scientist you need to prove yourself through exams and then by publishing papers that your peers review. I am not qualified to judge them, but I have some trust in the system.
None of us is going to read every scientific paper to understand how everything works, so you have to trust that others have read them. The system is by no means perfect, but it is all we have. Humans are imperfect too. They can lie and steal, but most are basically honest and so the crooks can get caught out.
Unlike some people here I have respect and trust in some politicians and CEOs. They are just people like us after all, not alien lizards out to conquer Earth (or whatever some people believe).
Trust should not be blind, but you get to set the limits you place on it. Yours may be different to mine. When I get on a plane I trust that it has been tested and maintained. I do not do my own inspection.
I love conversations like this, thanx @steevc and @heretickitten 😊
I never said the firmament was flat, but I bet NASA knows if it's dome shaped or flat. We can bounce radio signals off of it afterall. NASA tells us that the iono-"sphere" is a bunch of electrically-charged ions or something iirc. Even if there was a layer of pure helium up there, do you believe that we could bounce radio signals off of that? To bounce a radio signal off of something (I am a licensed HAM btw) it needs to be dense enough to get useful data back from it, but voice calls..? I wouldn't be so sure about that. That (and Operation Fishbowl, Operation Highjump, etc) is what makes me believe that whatever is up there is solid (just as the bible describes ~200 times). Many political figures too have referred to our "glass ceiling" and many astronauts are on camera saying that we have never been out of "low earth orbit".
I'm not a Christian either as I stated, I prefer to go by what my senses tell me along with the scientific method (testable, observable, measurable and repeatable).
One thing that I have noticed about the Christians and the globe believers alike is that whenever we hit the point of cognitive dissonance, science goes right out the window. Christians will say "it was God's will" or "it was a miracle". Globe believers will say "because of gravity".
"God's will" and miracles are not science. I'm sorry Christians, but that is just how I feel. Who were the many bibles written by? Men. What do men with power usually want? The pastor at my church when I was a kid referred to us as his "flock". WTF? How insulting. I do agree though that this realm in which we dwell was created by an intelligence that as of now we do not fully understand yet. The apocalypse will reveal all though (by definition) and seems to be happening as we speak.
Gravity is still a theory. As a matter of fact, they admit that gravity is comprised of over 95% dark matter and dark energy. That's 2 more theories on top of your theory. Sooo, density, buoyancy and the electrostatic force don't explain why things fall downwards or rise up to the equilibrium/medium that surrounds them? okaaaay
Exactly. This is what I was trying to explain earlier, that if the base equation does not have proven facts/laws in each of the variables of the equation, then that equation will never yield a fact or law, and all equations based on that will also be incorrect.
Speaking of men with power, Julius and Augustus Caesar even changed the names of the months in their "honor". The gregorian calendar is a ridiculous mess. I suggest we go back to the 28 day and 13 months just like the sky clock gives us.
One word: compartmentalization - They're not all lying imo, they have just been duped like the rest of us. Quadrillions of people can be wrong, given a long enough timeline. The controllers control the narrative, the peer review results, the guy's who count the votes, the college "degrees", the "license" that those authorities may or may not grant you, etc...
Don't even get me started on govern-ment and corpse-orations etc. Just because a mob of people (ie: demo-cracy), or the School "Board" says what the facts are, doesn't make it so. I love etymology. Anyway, the dangers of groupthink don't even need to be discussed here.
How do we know that they even existed at all? Weren't the Rockefellers the controllers of that curriculum that we all had to read in school? Their Foundation stamp is found everywhere in academia.
Again, written and approved by whom?
I could care less about their white lab coats, degrees, licenses, accolades, political position, wealth, reviews, title, etc. For things that matter to me, like where we came from, why we are here, etc, I want the facts, based on the scientific method, where every variable in the equation can be proven. Proper research requires facts that we can prove together again and again.
How then, if radio signal pings and lasers were not used, then how did they measure the distance to the sun from the earth. Magical spaceship star trek "probes" is not a proper scientific answer.
A bunch of gases came together because of "gravity" (from chaos to order? ie: impossible in nature) and formed a burning ball of gas in a void/vacuum and creates magical gravitational forces that pull things in to form ball shapes in a flat "egg" pattern across unfathomable distances whereby nothing exploded into something and created everything. Sorry, but there's way too many impossibilities with that belief imo.
Why would I want to subject myself to all this? Being called a flat-tard, flat-head, idiot, moron, science-denier and all that bs. This is what started me on that rabbit hole of our existence.. Their "lunar lander". They flew to the moon in this tweaker hut? If NASA lied about this monstrosity, maybe they lie to us about some other things too. This piece of sh!t looks like it was built by some kindergartners...