DHF Proposals Could Use Polls

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Ever since I read about the initial version of Open Polls protocol, I had an idea but I didn't find the right day to post about it. I decided today is the day.

DHF Proposal System: Simple, but Inflexible

The DHF proposal system has a few simple, but strict rules that govern it:

  • someone creates a proposal, which involves a post that describes it and a set of parameters: starting date, ending date, payment per day in HBD; there is also a fee to create a proposal to avoid spam and discourage long-term proposals (10 HBD + 1 HBD for every day of the funding period above 60 days)
  • stakeholders vote or not on the proposal
  • if the proposal has more stake voting on it than the return proposal, it gets funded, if not, it doesn't
  • the proposal can move between being funded and unfunded during the funding period, based on its votes compared to the return proposal
  • when the funding period expires, if the proposal needs an extension, a new proposal needs to be created and the process starts over
  • the proposal parameters cannot be changed after being created

Time to Improve the DHF?

Any idea to improve the DHF proposal system probably adds complexity compared to this simple process, and someone would need to make the changes, and they need to be applied in a hard fork (I believe), so things are not trivial.

However, sometimes the simplest way is not the best way (other than from the code perspective), because a simple process sometimes fails to be useful in more complex situations.

I don't have the key to improving the process, for that more minds are needed to think about this from different perspectives, but I do have some ideas that may or may not be considered worth implementing.

Adding Polls to DHF Proposals

My first idea, which I will present here, builds upon the existing system and integrates polls into proposals.

Here's the reason why I consider integrating polls into the DHF proposal system to be useful.

It often happens that disagreements on proposals are not fundamental (they are considered useful), but parameters are the ones that create disputes. Basically, it's about how much HBD the DHF would pay for it.

Integrating polls into the DHF proposals allows the proposer to create a few options from which voters can pick one, where mainly the parameters differ (payment per day and/or duration of funding).

Why would the proposer want that? Everyone would vote for the cheapest option, right? Wrong! Each payment/duration option comes with a different proposal (all presented in the same linked post), often on a gradual scale. Do you know how the subscription models come in tiers, with higher tiers offering extra options to justify a higher cost? Or how software has different versions from basic to professional with added features the more expensive the product version? Well, something like that I had in mind. If you want more HBD, you deliver more! If you want to pay less, you get what you paid for (and not more).

So, the options (if there are multiple options) would be presented as a poll, on which stakeholders vote as they see fit. Just like now, but instead of voting on a proposal as a whole, they vote on one option that establishes what they want to receive for how much HBD.

The winning option in the poll is the one that gives the parameters for the proposal.

Special Cases

In the event of a tie (highly unlikely when we compare total VESTS voting on each option), different solutions can be chosen. I think choosing the cheapest option from the ones tied at the top can be one solution, in this case.

What will be the total VESTS taken into consideration when comparing different proposals and their position relative to the return proposal? I think the best way would be to consider all votes on all options, rather than only the ones given for the winning option in the poll. Each of them gave support to the proposal in one form or another.

Final Words

That's it regarding integrating polls! What will be achieved by integrating them:

  • bring more clarity (hopefully) on what is paid for and what isn't
  • prevent situations when good proposals don't pass because they ask for too much (in the perception of voters); right now, the only thing they could do if they wanted to offer a cheaper alternative with less being offered is to create another proposal and pay another fee (having two similar proposals running at the same time probably wouldn't help)
  • reduce situations where proposals remain without funding (temporarily) due to payment disagreements

I have another idea that builds upon this one, where payments would be received on completed milestones/project instead of hourly (as an alternative, not instead of the current implementation). But about that another time.


Want to check out my collection of posts?

It's a good way to pick what interests you.

Posted Using InLeo Alpha



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24 comments
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Ideas are not bad. It's something good happening

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Yeah, that's the easy part. Having people agree with them and the implementation are the more difficult parts.

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I think the DAO in its current form is not fit for purpose and should just be burned.

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That's a bit extreme. I also believe our DAO needs to be reshaped to be able to face new challenges, but I wouldn't destroy it because it is far from perfect in its current form.

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This is an interesting idea. I didn't know that changing things will require a fork, but I think giving more options is usually better.

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Depends on what you change. From how I understand things, this will, because it affects the financial aspect of Hive's 1st layer, which cannot be changed without a hard fork.

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I think that is a pretty good idea. It lets us pick what things to support development on and it's not an all or nothing deal like it is now.

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It lets us pick what things to support development on and it's not an all or nothing deal like it is now.

Exactly. Introduces more flexibility, which may allow more projects to be funded on more precise sets of features (or anything else involved, like marketing campaigns).

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I still believe that there is still a lot of work that should be done on DAO in its current state

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Thank you for sharing this idea!

Yes, something like this would definitely be possible. It should work right out of the box, more or less. Since the poll is a regular post, and the proposal is linked to a regular post, you can just make your regular post a poll. And people will see the poll when they open your post. This is how it is planned.

The proposal creator could make the poll be about any aspect of the proposal, be it requested funding, deliverables, how it will be done, etc.

It might also make sense to use the polls to create a pre-proposal. The pre-proposal could allow stakeholders to vote on various parameters of the proposal, until things are fleshed out to the satisfaction of the stakeholders, upon which a proposal with those parameters can be created. Splinterlands has used a pre-proposal system like this, but in a more manual form.

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Thanks for dropping by! Polls have so many use cases. I hope the Open Polls protocol will be accepted and implemented throughout the Hive ecosystem, as it will enhance our options considerably.

Yes, something like this would definitely be possible. It should work right out of the box, more or less. Since the poll is a regular post, and the proposal is linked to a regular post, you can just make your regular post a poll. And people will see the poll when they open your post. This is how it is planned.

Ok, but how would the poll affect the parameters of the proposal, if the DHF code isn't updated to set the proposal parameters to the ones associated with the winning option of the poll?

It might also make sense to use the polls to create a pre-proposal.

Yes, a pre-proposal post with a poll would be a solution that wouldn't require any additional coding work. I do have an incremental build on my idea which would require updating the code of DHF, however. I know there isn't much desire to change this code at this time, but maybe at some point, it will become a priority.

Splinterlands has a manual pre-preproposal system (without polls) but continues to tweak its proposal system. For example, initially, voting 'no' on pre-proposals could stop them from becoming proposals. Now, if a pre-proposal gets enough votes, regardless if they are 'yes' or 'no', turns it into a full proposal (still, someone has to add it, it's not automated or decentralized). Splinterlands hasn't found a magic formula with the SPS DAO, but they are willing to make small, incremental changes to improve things. It doesn't help that they don't have enough dev power right now. This is a problem we generally have on Hive, unfortunately.

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Polls have so many use cases. I hope the Open Polls protocol will be accepted and implemented throughout the Hive ecosystem, as it will enhance our options considerably.

I think and hope so, too. It will be important to design everything with maximum flexibility as well as simplicity and ease of use, so that everyone can easily implement the system. And it is great to see people coming up with use cases and ideas for how it can be useful. Even though a poll doesn't necessarily enforce anything on its own, people can choose to agree on and follow its outcome, and if this is the case then polls can serve as a general governance system that can be used for all sorts of decision-making scenarios, with very high flexibility to tweak the poll settings for the particular situation. I guess we'll see what happens and how we'll use it.

Ok, but how would the poll affect the parameters of the proposal, if the DHF code isn't updated to set the proposal parameters to the ones associated with the winning option of the poll?

There are some things that can be changed after a proposal is published. The funding requested can be reduced (but not increased). The deliverables agreed on can also be changed by agreement, which would mean simply changing the post to specify the deliverables. I guess another thing that can be changed is that the proposal can be deleted at any point - I don't know if the end date can be changed but the proposal creator can promise to delete it at a certain date and a notification system can be tied to the poll to notify all poll participants to stop voting for the proposal at that date. This last example sounds perhaps a bit too convoluted for regular usage, but my point is more so that changes to the core blockchain software take time and typically give us limited flexibility, whereas if we think of ways to do something without needing to change the blockchain software itself, then we have very high flexibility and ease of change. If we can make it work reliably and easily, of course.

Splinterlands hasn't found a magic formula with the SPS DAO, but they are willing to make small, incremental changes to improve things. It doesn't help that they don't have enough dev power right now. This is a problem we generally have on Hive, unfortunately.

Yep, definitely. Now, imagine a situation where instead of people developing solutions for their particular app, they developed general solutions. Specify an open protocol for how it will work, make backend nodes that anyone can run, and then make it easy for frontends to implement the feature. There is so much repetition of work happening right now, and instead we can think of how to create generalized and highly flexible features or building blocks that anyone can use. I don't think we have a lack of dev power but a lack of this kind of coordination, which incidentally polls can also help with, hopefully.

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Now, imagine a situation where instead of people developing solutions for their particular app, they developed general solutions. Specify an open protocol for how it will work, make backend nodes that anyone can run, and then make it easy for frontends to implement the feature. There is so much repetition of work happening right now, and instead we can think of how to create generalized and highly flexible features or building blocks that anyone can use. I don't think we have a lack of dev power but a lack of this kind of coordination, which incidentally polls can also help with, hopefully.

Developing open-source, general solutions with wider contributions from different corners of an ecosystem should be one of the strongest points of a decentralized system in Web 3. That's why I don't like when we keep returning to the practices from Web 2 of silo development. Maybe because when you control most aspects of development, it seems like you can make it go faster, which may be true in some cases. Cooperation is not always easy, but it is desirable in Web 3.

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Hello, @gadrian. Your ideas about how to improve the DHF proposal system sounds great! DHF certainly does need improvement if one cannot go back in and change something and this is very inflexible. Have a great week! Barb 🙂🌟👍 !BBH !CTP

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I really think the idea of polls is not really a bad one actually to think of

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Having a built in tier system might allow funding more projects. At least I wish that would be the case. Most of the DHF is unused and we are HODLing a stablecoin when we are at the beginning of one of the biggest bull markets we are going to see.
!PIZZA

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The only problem I see with more funds going out of the DHF every day is that most of them end up being dumped.

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